The Good News of the Great Day
of Atonement
EX ANASTASEOHS
By the Power of His Resurrection
… and mistakes and misconceptions about that Feast
GE:
… with reference to Leviticus 16:1- 19
Why I say it is Good News … what
the purpose of this study might be …
“What think ye of Christ?”
First, that I may say,
“I was blind; now I see.”
Then, that WE, may say,
“Now … we see Jesus” in the feast of the Great Day of Atonement of the
Israel of God.
Misconceptions concerning the
Great Day of Atonement …
The misconceptions regarding the Great Day of God’s Reconciliation with
sinners through Jesus Christ, HELP us a lot to understand that ‘day’ of the
ninth and tenth days of the Seventh Month as Divine Prophecy and Promise of
Grace and Salvation. Do not fear or despair because of the Great Day of
Confusion it has been turned into. Although in disguise, every challenge is an
opportunity.
First misconception
General opinion is, the sacrifices made in the ‘first apartment’ or
‘holy place’ were made on the tenth day of the month, not on the ninth day.
Take note that the Great Day of Atonement had TWO dates … so is it
“according to the Scriptures”. Why should we argue about it? Like with the
meaning of the word ‘atone’, only because
of tradition;
tradition and nothing else than HUMAN wisdom.
So, not that it is the most important, but let us mention first, the
almost universal misconception regarding the Great Day of Atonement, that its dates of the ninth day and tenth days
of the Seventh Month are a contradiction and that the date of the ninth, is wrong.
The good news is, the two dates are no mistake or contradiction; the
feast of the great day of atonement was over both the ninth and the tenth days
of the Seventh Month …
… as we shall see, God willing …
About misconception two,
Let us understand, What we speak of, when we say the word ‘atone’, or
‘atonement’.
Many misconceptions are entertained about whether the sacrifice(s) made
on the altar in the ‘first apartment’ or ‘holy place’ on that day, ‘made atonement’
or not.
Seventy times I think, ‘atone’ or ‘atonement’ is the word used in the
King James version for the Hebrew word, ‘kah-phar’. But the meaning of the word
‘kah-phar’ depends on CONTEXT, and varies in meaning, even where used in
connection with the Great Day of Atonement and translated with ‘atone’ or
‘atonement’, and must not dogmatically be restricted to some vague cultic
meaning Christianity through the ages attached to the English word, ‘atonement’
/ ‘to atone’, namely, the meaning of an oblation
morally and legally performed BY US, in return for God’s favour or grace. There
is NO benefit or virtue of US, or mystery or MAGIC hidden in the blood of the animal(s) by which
‘atonement’, ‘kah-phar’, was obtained (at any time or place), like Romanism
believes the blood of Christ shed on the cross did not atone for sin, but that
the ‘wine-turned-into-blood’ in the eucharist or mass.
The word ‘kah-phar’ for ‘atonement’, atone’, also means, for example,
“be merciful” in Deuteronomy 21:8;
“forgave” in Jeremiah 18:23 Psalm 78:38;
“purge away” / “deliver” Psalm 79:9;
“pardon” in 2Chronicles 30:18;
“reconcile” in many places, and
“protect” in Genesis 6:14— all, meaning but one thing,
‘to save’ or ‘salvation’.
Genesis 6:14 is a very interesting case!
The ark was “covered” with —one and the same word—, “bitumen”, ‘kah-phar’,
from which is derived the word “gopher” for “gopher wood”, the kind of wood
Noah’s ‘ark’ or ‘place of rescue’ or ‘sanctuary’, was made of.
Indeed it would change nothing in the meaning of the “Great Day of
Atonement”, got it known as
‘the Great Day of Reconciliation’ or
‘the Great Day of Forgiveness’ or
‘the Great Day of Restoration’, or
‘the Great Day of the Cleansing of the Sanctuary’ or
‘the Great Day of Shelter and Safety’ or
‘the Great Day of Investigative Judgment’ or
‘the Great Day of Salvation’, or
‘the Great Day of THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS’ or
‘the Great Day of Love’ …
… ‘the Great Day of God’s Love’ “for the world … so that He gave his
Only Begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have
everlasting life.”
About misconception three,
Some people, like the Seventh-day Adventists, say the sacrifice(s) made
on the altar in the ‘first apartment’ or ‘holy place’ as type(s) of Christ, was
/ were not the atonement at all.
Others say the sacrifice(s) as type(s) of Christ on the altar in the
‘first apartment’ or ‘holy place’, were types of the atonement once for all
finished and final in Christ’s death on the cross.
The Good News is both ideas are wrong and the FULL truth is much
broader and more comprehensive.
It must be understood,
‘atonement’ was NOT, first “MADE” on the altar in the ‘holy’ or ‘first
apartment’ at all;
NOR ever, was made by an ‘ORDINARY’ priest on the Great Day of
Atonement.
Also, ‘atonement’ was not ‘finished’
on the altar in the ‘first apartment’ or ‘holy place’ by the high priest WHILE
HE WENT IN AND THROUGH ‘the holy place’ or ‘first apartment’.
This is the crucial factor of all fact or misconception.
The Good News about the great
day of atonement is, ‘FINAL atonement’ was “made” by the HIGH priest, in the ‘
BECAUSE THIS IS THE BIG DIFFERENCE between the atonement made by Christ
and the atonement earthly priests were able to make. Christ namely, ONLY is
High Priest although He is “Priest after the Law of Eternal Life”, and ONLY
made atonement in the
There seems to be a lot of contradictory statements here ... but hang
on ... it's a long way to
The Text
Keep in mind the chiasmus of the composition which explains the
rhythmic interchange of basic ideas. In other words, how one idea or
thought-capsule recurs and is continued after another idea or
thought-capsule.
Leviticus 16
1) The high priest COMES …
2… Aaron (shall) not any time come into
the holy-within-the-veil-before-the-LORD [the most holy place of the
tabernacle] :
that he die not, for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat [in
the most holy].
2) The high priest comes
before the gate and ACCEPTS …
6… for HIMSELF and for his house …
3… a young bullock for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering. Thus
shall Aaron come into the holy place [the fore-court] …
6… and Aaron shall [in the fore-court of the sanctuary or “holy place”]
offer / present his bullock of the sin offering which is for himself to make an
atonement for himself and for his house.
3) The high priest accepts
the TWO KIDS of the goats …
4… He shall put on the holy linen coat … holy garments …
… therefore, he shall wash his flesh in water and put them on.
5… And he shall take of the congregation two kids of the goats for a
sin offering and one ram for a burnt offering.
4) The high priest PRESENTS
the two kids of the goats …
7… And he shall take the two goats and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the
congregation [before the veil-entrance to the holy place or first apartment] ...
8… as follows: [At the door to the holy] Aaron shall cast lots upon the
goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
9… And Aaron shall bring and [at the door to the holy] offer / present
the goat upon which the LORD’S lot for a sin-offering fell;
10… but the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat for to make
an atonement with him, shall he present alive before the LORD to let him go
into the wilderness for scapegoat.
5) The high priest SACRIFICES
the BULLOCK for HIMSELF …
11… Then Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offerings which is
for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself and for his house and shall
KILL the bullock of the sin offering for himself. [On the grate of the altar
Exodus 39:39; 40:29] TO SHOW THE SINLESSNESS of the “HIGH PRIEST OF ALMIGHTY
GOD”.
6) The high priest OFFERS
INCENSE first …
12… Next Aaron shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from
off the alter [in the fore-court] before the LORD, and his hands full of sweet
incense beaten small, shall bring it within the veil [into the holy place, onto
the golden altar of incense Exodus 40:26].
13… And he shall put the incense upon the fire [on the golden altar in
the holy place] before the LORD so that the cloud of the incense may cover the
mercy seat that is upon the [ark of] the testimony [that is within the veil in
the most holy of the tabernacle or sanctuary] that he die not.
7) The high priest then
offers / PRESENTS the BLOOD of the bullock first …
14… Also shall he take of the
blood of the bullock and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat
EASTWARD; and [from] in front of the mercy seat [westward] shall he sprinkle of
the blood with his finger seven times.
8) The high priest THEN ONLY
SACRIFICES the GOAT of the sin offering …
15a… Then, shall Aaron KILL the goat of the sin offering that is for
the people [in the holy place on the brazen altar] …
9) The high priest IMMEDIATELY
“brings the blood” …
15b… AND BRING, his blood
WITHIN THE VEIL AND DO WITH THAT BLOOD AS HE DID with the blood of the bullock.
[14… sprinkle the blood from behind IN THE INNERMOST OF THE most holy upon the mercy seat and from
before IN, THE INNERMOST OF THE most
holy upon the mercy seat.]
10) The high priest has MADE
ATONEMENT …
17… There shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation
[fore-court] when he [Aaron, high priest] goeth in (within the veil) in the MOST
HOLY [to make atonement] until he come out and _HAVE MADE / FINISHED atonement
/ reconciliation / forgiveness.
11) The high priest hereafter
MEDIATES in the holy place …
18… THEN shall he go
_OUT_ to the altar that is before the LORD [in the holy / first apartment.
There is no ‘altar’ in the most holy!]
and make atonement for = cleanse it.
‘The Cleansing of the Sanctuary’, is in the ‘first apartment’ or holy
place; not in the most holy place, notice, dear Seventh-day Adventist brothers!
… He shall take of both the blood of the bullock and of the goat and
put it upon the horns of the altar round about.
19… And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven
times, and CLEANSE it, and sanctify it from the uncleanness of the children of
Summary,
1) The high priest COMES (2)
2) The high priest comes before the gate and ACCEPTS (3,6)
3) The high priest accepts the TWO KIDS of the goats (4,5)
4) The high priest PRESENTS the two kids of the goats (7-10)
5) The high priest SACRIFICES for HIMSELF (11)
6) The high priest OFFERS INCENSE first (12,13)
7) The high priest then offers / PRESENTS the BLOOD of
the bullock first …
8) The high priest SACRIFICES the GOAT of the sin offering …
9) The high priest IMMEDIATELY “brings the blood” …
10) The high priest has MADE ATONEMENT …
11) The high priest hereafter MEDIATES in the holy place …
This is only the BEGINNING of the proceedings on the great day of
atonement, keep in mind!
These proceedings were only the BEGINNING on the great
day of atonement.
Notice that the high priest “take(s) of both the blood of the bullock
_and_ of the goat and put(s) it upon the horns of the altar round about (to)
CLEANSE and sanctify … the altar.” The whole sanctuary – both ‘departments’ of
“it” – is AT ONCE involved.
Now, considering ‘to atone’ also means ‘to cleanse’ and ‘to sanctify’
[see 2Chronicles 29:16,17], ‘atonement’
was FINISHED IN THE FORE-COURT, and not in the tabernacle of skins the most
holy place.
But even at this stage, we cannot properly speak of the “atonement
made” as finally finished, because we have only come as far as half-way through
all the proceedings on the great day of the Good News about Jesus Christ “our
Passover” and “Lamb of God”, BOTH “the Goat for the LORD YAHWEH” _and_ “the
Goat for the HEALER ALMIGHTY GOD / Azazel”.
I see some persons moving very uneasily on their chairs; others shaking
their heads, No no!
I appreciate your courtesy brothers and sisters. I pray some good will
come of all this in the end.
‘Sacrifice’ and ‘offering’
Let us look again at the eleventh point in our summary last time.
“11) The high priest hereafter MEDIATES in the holy place…”
Does he ‘make atonement’?
Yes, he does; with the blood of animals ALREADY sacrificed; the SAME
blood with which he had entered before into the skin-room where the ark of the
testimony was.
With only a little bit of the animals’ life-blood which was shed upon
the grate of the brazen altar in the ‘people’s court’.
The blood only SYMBOLIZED the actually poured out
blood; NO
sacrifice was again made! The sacrifice was perfect and “finished”; its
“presentation” or “offering” was not finished; “MEDIATION” of its blood has
only – figuratively – BEGUN!
Here we see certainly one of the most important traits of Old Testament
typology … no, let me say it more plainly, of OT types.
There were many sacrifices of many animals; sacrifices of many
categories and for many reasons; different sacrifices for different sins;
different animals for well to do and poor, and so on.
They were ALL sacrificed for their life-BLOOD in the place of the
sinner’s own LIFE.
“No forgiveness / remission of sin without shedding of blood!” Hebrews
9:22.
But as soon as the blood of the sacrifice had been shed, its
APPLICATION began; and under the Old Covenant of TYPES, the application was
done with blood that was RESERVED for the purpose of its various applications.
Like we have seen Aaron took of the blood and sprinkled some on the ark of the
testimony; and still some on the altar.
These different ceremonial acts were many because they were finite,
temporary and mortal. They were MANY in order to better TYPIFY the TRUE— the
“Antitype” in all its attributes and virtues, which was ONE, even Jesus Christ OUR
“Help from the Sanctuary” Psalm 20:2, “The All in all Fulfilling
FULLNESS-OF-GOD-IN-HIS-SANCTUARY” Psalm 77:13; 150:1. “Sanctify the LORD of hosts
HIMSELF, and let HIM be your fear, and HIM your dread and He shall be for a
Sanctuary. … Bind up the Testimony, seal The Law among my disciples.” Isaiah
8:14,16. “A glorious High Throne from
the beginning is The Place of our Sanctuary, o LORD the Hope of Israel … the
LORD the Fountain of Living Waters.” Jeremiah 17:12,13.
The sacrifices could ONLY typify Jesus’ DEATH! No sacrifice by the
shedding of its life-blood was able to show forth (typify) Jesus’ LIFE! And
THEREFORE just the symbolic quantity of its LIFE’S-blood, was APPLIED AS WERE
IT
JESUS’ _LIFE_!
This meant the difference between a ‘sacrifice’ per se and its
“offering”.
People more often than not CONFUSE the “offering” of a sacrifice via
the application of its already spilt life’s blood for the killing of it by the
shedding of its life’s blood. And that is why Catholicism only respects the
bloody part of the Gospel, and literally through its images and
transubstantiation at the mass, worships a still bleeding Christ.
It is never thought the high priest’s sprinkling and touching of the
few symbolic drops of blood of the KILLED sacrifice, foreshadowed JESUS’
RESURRECTION AND LIFE! Catholicism ABSORBS all Old Testament symbolism and
typology into MAN’S castigation of the Christ, and the bloodier the fuller its
false gospel.
Protestantism has fallen for Catholicism’s mutilated humanised and
halve atonement. Be alert for the manifestation of its most successful deceit
in just about all Protestant thinking. Reconciliation, cleansing, atonement, forgiveness
of sin, ENDS “at the Cross”. Don’t miss the capitalised “Cross”, Catholicism’s
great Icon and Idol … its God!
Don’t let us Protestants be so dumb to follow in the Catholics’
footsteps. Pay due respect to the Christ on the cross; but realise the ‘cross’
is but the point where two lines cross, and by far, not the whole or end.
‘The cross’ is not – like Lohmeyer would have said –
“the God-given and therefore eschatological inevitable and imperative
whole and wholeness” of the Gospel of Jesus Christ
which we find ONLY in the whole and wholeness of The Great Day of
Atonement of Yahweh and Healer God Almighty – “Azazel”. “HEALER” unto LIFE; not
stopping or finishing or ‘resting’ half-way, in death before, “RESTING-UP-AGAIN
HIS NAME IS THE MOST HOLY PLACE.” Isaiah 57:15.
‘Atonement’ and ‘cleansing’
We ventured to identify the concepts of ‘cleansing’ of the sanctuary
and making ‘atonement’ for it.
We have not made distinction of the objects ‘cleansed’ or ‘atoned’, but
have mentioned that everything and the WHOLE of the sanctuary, the high priest,
and the congregation of
That of course is absolutely valid in the case of the Reality, of the
‘cleansing’ and ‘atonement’ JESUS had made, “once for all”.
But over-generalisation is also not good for TRUTH.
If the Scriptures make distinctions, we must take it at heart; not just
glance over it. And so it is with the DIFFERENT acts of the high priest on the
great day of atonement. The Scriptures use words with general as well as
special meaning.
The word for ‘to cleanse’ in
Leviticus 16:19,30
Numbers 8:7,15,21
2Chronicles 29:15,16,18
Nehemiah 13:9,30
Ezekiel 39:12,14,16,
is not from ‘kah-phar’, ‘atonement’; it is from ‘taher’.
(‘chata’ in Exodus 29:36 Leviticus 14:49,52)
“taher” is used in Psalm 51:2,
“Wash me … and CLEANSE me from my sin.”
But that is the meaning of ‘kah-phar’, ‘atonement’, exactly?!
For sure it is. YET ALSO the meanings of the two words are DIFFERENT!
See how the meaning of ‘taher’, ‘to cleanse’ correlates with the
meaning of ‘kah-phar’, ‘to atone’,
“Wash _me_ … and CLEANSE _me_
from _my_ sin”—
‘individual’ sin;
“I will cleanse _them_ from all _their_ iniquity”— ‘collective’ sin.
Are we not accustomed to the different ‘applications’ with the
‘atonement’ from ‘kah-phar’ to ‘individual’ sin and ‘collective’ sin? No doubt, we are; we have already come across
these ‘cleansings’ in the text of Leviticus 16. So, right; so is it with the
‘cleansing’ of the sanctuary from ‘taher’.
The language used to describe the processes in and aspects of the great
day of atonement, is markedly its all round applicability but also its more
precise indicatory significance.
Now notice carefully just _where_, the FIRST incidence(s) of the term
‘taher’ occurs!
It is not found when the high priest makes sacrifice;
it is NOT found when he presents or applies blood inside the most holy
place;
it is not found when he burned incense;
it is not found when the high priest made atonement for ‘individual
sin’ with the “bullock”;
it is NOT found when he made atonement for ‘collective sins’ with the
“goat for Yahweh”!
The term ‘taher’ with the EXCLUSIVE meaning of
‘CLEANSING-OF-THE-SANCTUARY’ and of the congregation – from ALL their
pollutions and defilements of sin ‘individual’ and ‘collective’ –
only first occurs
AFTER the high priest had COME OUT from the most holy place
when he sprinkled and smeared the LAST few drops of blood to
_not_ the ark or the golden altar of incense, but
to the BRAZEN altar (for the killing of the sacrifices), and
in the FORE-COURT or ‘holy place’,
WHILE the linen veil before it was OPENED,
and the veil of skins behind him was CLOSED,
and “NO ONE was in the fore-court – ‘the holy’ – of the
congregation”,
except the high priest.
So did JESUS ‘cleanse the Sanctuary’—
not in the most holy place of ANY “sanctuary-made-with-hands”
on earth or ‘in heaven’,
but in his OWN BEING as The Sanctuary and
right in the FORE-COURT of the Congregation his Church,
ALL-IN-ONE and “FOR” all, and “ONCE-FOR-ALL” and forever,
“by the sacrifice of HIMSELF”—
… not in 1844 and not ‘in heaven’.
Key to understanding the statement?
Jesus HIMSELF, in Himself and by Himself, is “The ALL in all fulfilling
FULLNESS-OF-GOD … given to the Church as Head” “by the sacrifice of Himself” _and_,
“by the Power of the Father” “WHEN GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD”— the God-given
and therefore imperative and inevitable eschatological whole and wholeness of
The Atonement, “JESUS”, “God-with-us”, “your LIFE hid with CHRIST in God”.
For He is BOTH the Atonement of and Cleansing from our sins. For He is
both our High Priest in heaven and on earth, and both our Place of Refuge and
Sanctification in his dying of death but “MORE SO” in his
Resurrection-from-the-dead-and-grave into
and unto “LIFE”. Romans
5:10,11; 17,18.
XSDA:
The New Testament says that Christians do indeed come into judgment, see
Romans 14:11-12; 2 Corinthians 5:10.
However, the saved and redeemed do not come into judgment for
condemnation [Romans 8:1] but for vindication [acquittal, clearance defense,
justification].
Daniel 7:21-22 says that a judgment was made “IN FAVOUR” of the Saints.
So we need not fear the judgment. It is for our vindication. John says that we
can have boldness in the Day
of Judgment. See 1
John 4:17.
In John 5:22-24, compare the NKJV with the NIV and you will see that
Christians do not come into judgment, in the sense, that they do not receive
death and condemnation.
They have passed from death to life. And that’s fantastic news.
John 5:24 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and
believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall NOT COME INTO
judgment, but has passed from death into life.
GE:
The TRUTH!
Thank you for the TRUTH!
XSDA:
John 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is
finished.”...
Acts 7:55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and
saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
GE:
More TRUTH! Thank you for the TRUTH!
XSDA:
When the High Priest went within the veil on the Day of Atonement, he
ministered the atoning blood immediately. In the same way, when Jesus entered
the presence of God with his blood (Col. 3:1; Heb. 1:3; 8:1; 12:2), atonement
had been made, once and for all.
Jesus did not take his blood in to make atonement; he took his blood in
as a sign that atonement had been made. He went in 'having obtained eternal
redemption.' 'He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but
he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained
eternal redemption' (Heb. 9:12 NIV. See also RSV).
The Investigative Judgement, as taught in the SDA fundamental beliefs,
is a concept that is not only foreign to the New Testament, it is contrary to
the gospel which teaches that we pass from death to life the moment we put our
faith in the Lord (John 5:24).
GE:
Thank you again for bringing to this discussion this incalculable
valuable association of Scriptures! I agree with you and appreciate your
statement; it is good!
You say, “When the High Priest
went within the veil on the Day of Atonement, he ministered the atoning blood
immediately.”
Compare the Text of Leviticus 16, the high priest between verses 2 and
19 entered the most holy place twice; Jesus, ONLY ONCE: in Himself for Himself AND for the People “once for all”!
Jesus’ suffering, sacrifice, burial and offering not only ‘covered’ or ‘represented’
or ‘fulfilled’ all aspects and services of the great day of atonement; He by
the ONE sacrifice of Himself and Resurrection ‘covered’, ‘represented’ and
‘fulfilled’ ALL sacrifices and offerings and feasts – like for example and
especially the passover.
The high priest offers /
PRESENTS the BLOOD of the bullock first …
14… Also shall he take of the blood of the bullock and sprinkle it with
his finger upon the mercy seat EASTWARD; and [from] in front of the mercy seat
[westward] shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.
The high priest THEN ONLY
SACRIFICES the GOAT of the sin offering …
15a… Then, shall Aaron KILL the goat of the sin offering that is for
the people [in the holy place on the brazen altar] …
The high priest IMMEDIATELY
“brings the blood” …
15b… AND shall BRING, his
blood WITHIN THE VEIL AND DO WITH THAT BLOOD AS HE DID with the blood of the
bullock.
[14… sprinkle the blood from behind IN THE INNERMOST OF THE most holy upon the mercy seat and from
before IN, THE INNERMOST OF THE most
holy upon the mercy seat.]
After this, what you have said, is absolutely true,
“In the same way, when Jesus entered the presence of God with his blood
(Col. 3:1; Heb. 1:3; 8:1; 12:2), atonement had been made, once and for all.”
How wonderful that you mention “Col. 3:1” IN THIS REGARD!
Yes, Christ, AS HE ROSE from the dead in the Sanctuary of his Glorified
Body, “ENTERED THE PRESENCE of God with his blood”!
GLORIOUS!
“If ye be risen with Christ”, means that “ye (are) where Christ is
seated on the right hand of God” IN THE RESURRECTION of Christ _FROM THE DEAD_,
death and the grave— in Christ that is, 2000 years ago!
“When He had by Himself
(through Sacrifice of Himself)
“PURGED our sin
[– ‘atoned for our sins’ –]
“SAT down
[i.e., ascended Throne / was Crowned / was Exalted / Rested]
(>>immediately<<)
“on the right hand of the Majesty on High.”
“We have such an High Priest who …
“is seated / exalted / rested-up / enthroned …
“on the right hand of the (Royal) …
“Throne-of-His-Majesty-in-Heavens …
“MINISTER-OF-THE-SANCTUARY …
“[HIMSELF] THE-TRUE-TABERNACLE …
“which the Lord pitched / raised / elevated / honoured …
“not man …”
“JESUS Author and Finisher of Faith …
“who for the JOY EXHIBITED before Him …
[“First Sheaf Offering Waved-before-the-LORD”]
“ ENDURED THE CROSS …
“ and having despised the shame,
“was rested up / exalted / seated / enthroned / glorified / praised /
worshipped …
“AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE THRONE OF : GOD!”
I quote the Scripture from your quoting it,
“He went in 'having obtained eternal redemption.' 'He did not enter by
means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once
for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption' ” (Hebrews 9:12).
See the identification of Christ and the
“_HE_, entered: The Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood,
having obtained eternal redemption' ”.
The Most Holy Place of the Sanctuary is Jesus Christ …
Jesus Christ, is “The
Jesus Christ is, our High Priest;
Jesus Christ is our High Priest “entered”;
Jesus Christ is, The Most Holy Place …
is, “HE … The Most Holy Place / Sanctuary”—
Jesus Christ
is, “HE … by his own blood” …
is, “HE … “by his own LIFE” in resurrection from the dead;
is, “HE”, Jesus Christ – our
“Most Holy Sanctuary –
having obtained eternal redemption once for all”
through resurrection from the dead.
The Name of Christ our Sanctuary must be read in and from this
Scripture with one, mighty phrase of praise, worship and adoration, “Jesus
Christ ENTERED the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood having
obtained eternal redemption” IS JESUS through having been both crucified,
buried and RAISED from the dead—
IS CHRIST “The-ALL-in-all-fulfilling-FULLNESS-of-God”
“HE-having-entered-into-his-own-rest-as-God-in-his-own”—
IS “JESUS-(who)-had-given-them-Rest”,
JESUS CHRIST “The-Rest-of-God”— HIMSELF.
Jesus’ Name is not only the one or two syllable proper name words,
‘Christ’ and ‘Jesus’, but “HIS NAME IS, THE-MOST-HOLY-SANCTUARY”. Isaiah 57:15.
Jesus’ Name, is:
“HE-WHO-IS-BEING-EXALTED-AT-THE-RIGHT-HAND-OF-GOD”;
his NAME is, “CHRIST-FAR-ABOVE-EVERY-NAME-THAT-IS-NAMED”;
his NAME is, “Christ-far-above-all-principality-and-power”.
Moreover,
Christ’s “Name is The-Most-Holy-Sanctuary-BEING-RESTED-UP-AGAIN”;
Christ’s Name is “The-Exalted-RAISED-from-the-dead-at-the-Right-Hand-of-God”;
“Christ-far-above-every-name-that-is-named-God-having-RAISED-Him-from-the-dead.”
Because “He did not enter through the blood of goats and calves but …
… He entered The-Most-Holy-Place-through-his-own-LIFE,
having had once for all obtained eternal redemption”—
the redemption of eternal LIFE. Hebrews 9:12.
Of mortal sinners it is required, “Your blood of your lives will I require
… (the) flesh with the LIFE thereof is the blood thereof.” Genesis 9:4,5. But of “The-Giver-of-Life”, the LIFE of both
your blood and flesh and soul and life, says God, will I require of you … that
they, may live.
The scapegoat or goat for
Azazel
‘The Cleansing of the Sanctuary’, is in the ‘first apartment’ or holy
place; not in the most holy place, notice, dear Seventh-day Adventist brothers!
‘The Cleansing of the Sanctuary’, is AFTER, and NOT before, atonement MADE in the
MOST holy place. ‘The Cleansing of the Sanctuary’, is in ‘the HOLY’ or ‘FIRST
apartment’, my dear brothers in Jesus Christ, I beg you to please take to
heart.
The Text, Leviticus 16:20-34
continued to allow itself to teach us,
Verse 20 and further … chapter 16 … yes … the third book of Moses … ja
… Leviticus; ‘Moses 3’ for our German brothers … There are many of our German
brothers and sisters in Christ who observe 3 Moses 16 literally, well,
‘literally’ as ‘literally’ without the physical animal sacrifices could be.
What would this mean, today, in our ‘literal’ world? “And the flax and
the barley was smitten : for the barley was in the ear, and the flax was
bolled.” A medical condition?
1) Jesus Christ “RISEN” from
the dead in the Sanctuary of his own Being makes intercession on behalf of
God’s SAVED People.
Leviticus 16 …
20… When Aaron hath made an END of RECONCILING …
Surely it proves what Aaron had done BEFORE (2-19), has everything and
all together been “reconciliation”!
Definitely and definitively! As we said before, ‘kah-phar’- ‘atonement’
just as well is ‘reconciliation’. Is it the word ‘kah-phar’, used here in 20a? It
is! And where, have we read, made Aaron
this “to reconcile-atonement” (Infinitive) LAST? In the ‘FIRST apartment’, on his way OUT of
the tabernacle. Jesus Christ “RISEN”— BEING RAISED, FROM, the dead, in the LIVE
Sanctuary of his own
Being, makes
reconciliating intercession!
Not inside the skin-roofed tabernacle / most holy / sanctuary, but IN
THE HOLY PLACE where He was slaughtered Our Passover Lamb “BY THE SACRIFICE OF
HIMSELF”, “FORASMUCH AS, He also Himself PARTOOK of flesh and blood that
through DEATH He might destroy him, the devil, that had the power of death
through having DELIVERED [that is, through having made atonement and
reconciliation for] them who through FEAR OF DEATH all their lives have been subjected
to bondage [of sin and Law].” Hebrews 214,15.
Christ had made FULL ATONEMENT for sin on the altar in the forecourt of
the People.
Therefore notice that the first time “atonement” is ANTICIPATED and PRESUPPOSED
in Leviticus 16, is after everything that had “TO BE” done, had, been done with,
and “the SCAPEGOAT SHALL be presented: ALIVE BEFORE THE LORD to make [FINAL] atonement:
WITH HIM: TO LET HIM GO”.
Verse 10—
The “atonement” was
“made / finished / wrought / availed” …
OUTSIDE the most holy place of the sanctuary …
ON the brazen altar “by the Sacrifice of Himself” … and
AFTER the taking of the blood of the live goat into the holy place …
and
AFTER the sprinkling of the blood of the live goat in the MOST holy
place of the tabernacle … and
AFTER the sprinkling of the blood of the live goat in the HOLY place of
the tabernacle … and
AFTER the “CLEANSING” made with the blood of the live goat in the holy
place of the tabernacle.
Because ‘atonement for sin’ was made and accomplished through the ministry
of our High Priest as represented by BOTH goats …
… through the DEATH that He DIED ON EARTH as the
Goat Slaughtered
for the LORD and …
… through the RESURRECTION that He “RAISED-UP-INTO” …
… “FROM THE DEAD” and GRAVE …
… as the Goat for Azazel, for ‘The Mighty Healer-God’, “LET GO”, TO
LIVE.
“Christ having been EXALTED …” or,
“Christ having been SEATED …”, or,
“Christ having ascended THRONE …”,
is Christ— “God RAISING
Him FROM THE DEAD”
in the
under Seal and
Testimony of the “Law of Death” —
is Christ “having
TRIUMPHED IN IT.”
Ephesians 2:19,20,
“God RAISING Christ FROM THE DEAD …”
—“Christ IN IT TRIUMPHED”— Colossians 2:15
“Thou hast ASCENDED ON HIGH, Thou hast led captivity [death and grave]
captive … our God the God of Salvation! Unto God the LORD belong the OUTGOINGS
FROM DEATH!” Psalm 68:18,20 [exodus and passover]
“God …
“… RAISING Christ FROM THE DEAD …
“… SEATING Him at his own right hand …
“… in Heavenly Highness …
“… God highly EXALTED Him … Philippians 2:9,
“… “Being rested-up-again his Name is Holies of Holies …
Isaiah 57:15.
Christ “being RAISED FROM the dead” IN “the ARK of Joseph”, is Christ ascended,
enthroned and crowned; is Christ glorified, honoured and ENTITLED “Christ the
Lord!”
“God EXALTED Him utterly and gave to Him the name the very NAME
ABOVE-every-name.”
“Wherefore?” Because “He humbled Himself becoming obedient unto death
even the death of the cross [most shameful
death].”
“FROM” _THIS DEATH_ “being raised”, ‘Jesus’ ascended in status to ‘Lord
and Christ of God’. Christ’s was utter exaltation; his elevation was to position
of “The Highest”; His Honour, “the King of kings”; His Holiness, “High Priest
of the Most High God” … ascension exaltation and glorification “in a moment, in
the twinkling of an eye … when THIS Corruptible (Son of man) put on
incorruptibility, and THIS Mortal (Son of God) put on immortality— when had
been brought to pass the Word that is written, Death is swallowed up in
victory! O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where, thy victory?”
“FROM the dead”; FROM death; FROM the grave! “Christ in it TRIUMPHED!”
‘From’ subjection unto the death of the cross, to, “all things subdued
unto Him” 1Corinthians 15:28 lasts there and then and THUS: “God raising Christ”!
Now, according to Seventh-day Adventism’s ‘investigative judgment’
teaching, there is nothing like this at all! But instead, there is a gradual ‘process
of atonement’ and or ‘judgment’, that for thousand years after Christ’s Return
will still not be finished!
No!
Christ therefore “ascended” to “heavenly places” and his Father “WHEN
God raised Him from the dead”, “by the glory of the Father”, BEFORE, “He was
taken up and a cloud received Him out of their sight.” Acts 1:9. The Father “by
the glory” of his very PRESENCE, “exalted” Christ in High Priestly dignity
BEFORE forty days after, ‘He went to the Father in heaven’ where He now CONTINUES
‘interceding on behalf of’ the People of God. He continues. He did not 1814
years after He was taken up, begin to
intercede!
BECAUSE …
… “IN HAVING BEEN SEATED, ENTHRONED AND CROWNED WITH GLORY …
“… God having RAISED Him FROM the dead …
“… BY THE GLORY OF THE FATHER …
“… WORKING THE EXCEEDING GREATNESS OF HIS
POWER …
… it was WHEN and it was WHERE and it was HOW Jesus FINISHED ATONEMENT FULL
AND FINAL ONCE FOR ALL.
Jesus ON EARTH made an end of his High Priestly ministry of atonement
in HIMSELF as the
He made end while the veil in between the holy and the most holy of the
earthly temple was RENT from above to below; and …
“… the third day according to the Scriptures” …
“… the angel of the Lord from the Sepulchre …
“… and Ark-of-the-Testimony …
“…cast away the STONE and sat on it …
“… the heavens rolled up like a blanket …
“… and the Sanctuary of God descending from the heavens came down upon
the earth— the Sanctuary made ONE in the “resting-up-again” of Christ, He,
being “Resting-PLACE” of God— the Tabernacle and Sanctuary of God that “the God
of peace brought again from the dead— our Lord Jesus Christ that Great Shepherd
of the sheep”, “The Lamb of God”, “STANDING as a Lamb SLAUGHTERED”, “SEATED, at
the right hand of God”— even the Son-of-Man-COME-FROM-THE-DEAD AGAIN:
TRIUMPHATOR!
THAT, is “atonement WROUGHT”, “reconciliation FINISHED”, “peace MADE”,
CLOSED and SEALED— “Therefore, Sabbaths, FEAST ye!”
If Christ’s Reconciling SAVING Resurrection and Resurrected Status in
the Glory of the Presence of God the Father cannot be prophetic of what will
happen to us-who-believe when He comes from the heavens again and we shall be
raised up from the dead incorruptible, WHAT CAN?!
Because of the Good News of the Great Day of Atonement Intercession of
our Great High Priest and Mediator between God and us, “forever”, our own
resurrection from the dead has been made fast and is assured. Praise God!
The further Context of the
great day of atonement
From now on in the Text, where the name of or Pronoun for Aaron appears
or is supposed, think, ‘God’. Like we
did where before up to verse 19, we read and thought the Name of Jesus the
fulfilment of the Aaronic dispensation and priesthood. Because Christ
resurrected and risen is “GOD-HEALER-SAVIOUR”, “the goat for AZAZEL”! ‘Azazel,
“Strong Noble” KING of Kings.
“Christ is risen! He is really risen!” greet the Russian Christians on
‘easter morning’ I understand.
We are not now going to get upset about that complained of phrase. The
idea is the believer’s whole world of thought and custom revolves around the
central fact of “Christ was raised from the dead by the Glory of the Father …
and declared Son of God by the Spirit of Holiness”— RAISED AND RISEN one’s own
Mediator one’s own Master and one’s own Lord in life and in death “INTERCEDING”
and “MAKING RECONCILIATION” on behalf of his own brothers and sisters, the
Elect and Saved before God Almighty. “_MY_ Lord and _MY_ God”, confessed Thomas
to the RISEN Jesus. “My God and YOUR God … my Father and YOUR Father”, consoled
Jesus THE RISEN, Mary and his disciples.
“The goat for Azazel …”
20… “He shall BRING …
[as were it from the dead]
… the LIVE goat :
… he shall lay both his hands
[in blessing and sanctification, the gesture of anointment, dedication
and consecration of an Ambassador and Mediator]
… upon the head of the LIVE goat,
… and he shall confess over Him
… all the iniquities of the children of
… and all their transgressions in all their sins …
[mediating the intercession of RECONCILIATION]
… putting them upon the head of the goat …
[Jesus The Head of the Church]
“… and Him shall He SEND AWAY …
“… to go out for war and battle …
“… The LORD is Man-of-War …
“… THE LORD, is his NAME …
“… By the Hand of a Fit Man …
“… shall He SEND Him …
“… Mighty Man of Valour, FIT!
“… JESUS … Christ-by-the-Will-of-God …
“… having spoiled principalities and powers
“… in procession of open shame …
“… IN IT TRIUMPHED!
“… The last enemy DESTROYED is DEATH!
“… DESTROYED …
“… according to the WORKING OF GOD’S MIGHTY POWER
“… WHICH HE WROUGHT …
“… WHEN HE RAISED CHRIST FROM THE DEAD!”
Halleluiah!
“… He shall send Him away …
“… HIGHER THAN THE HEAVENS …
“… I will cause Thee to ride upon the high places of the earth
“… seated at the RIGHT HAND of God
“… in heavenly exaltation.
“… Thou shalt bring them in and plant them
“… in the mountain of thine inheritance …
“… IN THE PLACE, O LORD, Thou hast made
“… for Thee to dwell in,
“… The SANCTUARY, O LORD,
“… thy HANDS have ESTABLISHED.
“… The LORD shall reign for ever and ever!”
“… for this Man because He continueth ever …
“… hath an Unchangeable Priesthood …
“… wherefore He is ABLE / FIT to …
“… SAVE to the UTTERMOST …
“… them that come unto God by Him.
“… He ever liveth to make intercession.
“… God hath not cast away His People
“… whom He foreknew…
“… wot ye not how He maketh intercession to God? …
“… making at-one-ment-with-God-with-us …
“… God in Christ … God with us” …
Jesus Christ, Triumphator …
“… GOD-FOR-US”!
“… By so much was Jesus made Guarantor and Surety of a Better
Covenant.”
“GOD-FOR-US”!
“… Ye shall hold your peace …
“… the LORD shall fight for you …
Take it or leave it; another and contrary understanding or
appropriation there is none. Not in Christ anyway. Outside Christ, yes; many;
and very learned.
EVERYTHING SAID, said in Leviticus 16:20,21.
I do not give you the Scripture references. It is part of the fun to
find them for yourself. And you may for
yourself decide if I combined all those Scriptures irresponsible or immorally.
Layout or plan or setup of
“the sanctuary”
Now in verses 20 to 30 of Exodus 40, we see the layout or plan or setup
of “the sanctuary”. Two factors are most important.
One, ONLY the ark of the testimony was in the enclosed and
roofed-with-skins, “tabernacle”;
Two, ALL other furniture of “the sanctuary” were “put in”, the “tent of
the congregation” which was enclosed on the sides, but open overhead.
That means the “candlestick” and the “golden altar” of “incense”, were
OUTSIDE and NOT “within the veil” or “covered”.
This is why “the sanctuary” was FURTHER compartmented. The “tent of the
congregation” was divided so that in the “temple built with hands” – in Hebrews
called a “tabernacle built with hands” – there were the “fore-court” and the
“holy place” – two ‘apartments’ BETWEEN which there was a SECOND ‘veil’.
So, the original “gate” of the “tent of the congregation” that also
gave entrance into “the sanctuary” as the combined “tent of the congregation”
and “tabernacle”, became the general entrance on the eastern side of the temple
onto the OPEN ‘forecourt-of-the-congregation’ and also ‘the veil’ that
separated the open ‘fore-court’ and the under the temple’s roof, “holy place”.
And so the primitive, original, “veil”, came to be called “the second
veil” while in fact it was the only true TYPE of Christ.
I mean, anyone of the congregation could enter through the gate into
the fore-court; and both under-priests and the high priest could enter and leave
MANY times on any given day EXCEPT on the great day of atonement when only the
high priest came into the fore-court or tent of the congregation, and all other
persons had to stay outside the gate but that was left open. Leviticus 16:17. Therefore neither of the
gate or later veil, were types of Jesus in strictest possible sense, while the
‘old’ and only veil of “the sanctuary”, was that type of veil made exactly
according to “the PATTERN shown Moses” in the wilderness. This then explains
how the SINGLE “holy place” of the wilderness “sanctuary”, the “tabernacle”,
developed into two ‘holy places’, “the holy” and “the most holy”, and how
either may mean the most holy place, and in the Antitype, Jesus Christ, EITHER,
mean THE MOST HOLY, “because resting-up-again HIS NAME IS THE
“The Pattern shown Moses” in the wilderness was “Christ Jesus”,
Ephesians 2!
“For HE, is our Peace, who hath
made both (“the commonwealth of Israel” and “aliens and strangers from the
covenants of promise”) ONE; and HE, is our Peace, who hath broken down the
middle-wall-of-partition, having abolished _IN HIS FLESH_ the ENMITY per the
Law- (concerning the sanctuary) of-commandments-in-ordinances, to IN HIMSELF create
ONE NEW MAN of the two, so making peace. That He might reconcile BOTH (“the Circumcision-of-the-flesh”
and those “who are called Uncircumcision”) unto God in One Body by the cross
having through it slain the ENMITY”— death and grave by RESURRECTION from the
dead.
Here is PAUL the apostle TEACHING the ‘SANCTUARY TRUTH’ ‘in the
Like there no longer is Greek or Jew, there no longer is ‘holy place’
or ‘most holy place’ BECAUSE “NOW IN CHRIST JESUS ye who sometimes were far off
are made nigh by the blood of Christ … (for) He came and preached PEACE to you
(ALL) which were afar off, as to them who were nigh. For through HIM we both
have (DIRECT AND IMMEDIATE) ACCESS by ONE Spirit unto the Father. Now THEREFORE
ye (both) are NO MORE strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the
saints (of all dispensations), and are fellow-citizens of the (one Church and)
HOUSEHOLD-OF-GOD— (the Sanctuary of the New Testament on earth) BUILT upon the
(one) foundation of the apostles AND prophets (the ‘Old Testament’): JESUS
CHRIST BEING THE CHIEF AND CORNER-STONE IN WHOM ALL the Building (the Church)
fitly framed together groweth unto an Holy Temple IN THE LORD IN WHOM ye (ALL)
also are raised up / builded together (IN THE LORD) for an HABITATION /
SANCTUARY / MOST HOLY PLACE of God through the Spirit.”
Paul PREACHED the ‘Sanctuary Truth’ very thoroughly and
faithfully and
truthfully, and makes of its ONENESS IN JESUS CHRIST the most sacred foundation
and cornerstone of ALL CHRISTIAN UNITY.
First Paul establishes the New Testament Truth of the ONENESS of the
New Testament SANCTUARY before he upon it again, constructs the ONENESS of
everything IN CHRIST JESUS else— such as the ONENESS and EQUALITY of the
Godhead, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, of the Scriptures, of the apostolate, of
the Church, before he only at last, ventures to speak on the ‘seven one’s’ of
the Christian Faith in general (in chapter 4).
“The Pattern shown Moses” in the wilderness was “Christ Jesus”, and
‘the tabernacle’ Moses built, showed forth nothing else and none other than
Christ Jesus resurrected crucified Lamb of God, our Passover.
Holy, Holy, Holy is the LORD
“I saw the LORD sitting upon His Throne HIGH AND LIFTED UP, and his
PROCESSION / MOTION FILLED the Temple … Holy, Holy, Holy, the LORD of hosts:
the WHOLE EARTH FULL-OF-HIS-GLORY!”
THREE times, does the high priest on the great day of atonement, enter
into the most holy place “within the veil”, “into” and under “the covering”
that “covered”, “the mercy seat”, that “covered the ark” in which was covered,
“the testimony” stones of the Law.
TWICE with BLOOD which is the life of the animals, the bullock and the
he-goat for the LORD, both as types of Christ who entered "ONCE FOR
ALL" the true or antitype, Hebrews 7:27; 9.
But BEFORE these two passes “within the veil” into the most holy place
with blood, THERE WAS THE FIRST entrance into behind the veil, the high
priest’s going into “within the veil” WITH INCENSE!
THREE times therefore, the high priest entered into the most holy OF
“THE TABERNACLE” on the great day of atonement.
Seventh-day Adventists say Christ entered into a ‘literal sanctuary in
heaven’ and only in 1844, started to ‘apply the blood” to begin to make ‘final
atonement’.
SDA:
Let’s see what careful exegesis reveals concerning the book of Hebrews.
Without making anyone have to read the book “Issues in the Book of Hebrews, Vol
4” by the Daniel and Revelation Committee Series, edited by Frank B. Holbrook
and exhausted by a number of scholars (information which the Evangelical
Christian world has yet to address), allow me to summarize:
Let us allow Paul to interpret Paul:
First off, there are 3 Greek expressions Paul uses to describe the
sanctuary in the book of Hebrews:
1. Hagion [singular] = Holies – or Entire two-apartment sanctuary (9:1)
2. Hagia [plural] = Holy Places – or First Apartment of the sanctuary
(9:2)
3. Hagia Hagion = Holies of Holies – Second Apartment or
There are also 2 Greek expressions Paul uses to describe the veil of
the sanctuary:
1. Katapetasma = First Veil, or just “Veil” – The veil to the First
Apartment or
2. To Deuteron Katapetasma = Second Veil – The veil to the Second
Apartment or
Hebrews 9:1-3 -
“(1) Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine
service, and a worldly sanctuary [HAGION, or “entire sanctuary”]. (2) For there
was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table,
and the showbread; which is called the sanctuary [HAGIA, or
In Hebrews 9:1-3, Paul clearly provides the rules of his own
definitions when describing the sanctuary. The Most Holy Place, beyond the
“second veil”, is rendered in the double: “hagia hagion”.
Now let’s evaluate the verse in question used to try and prove that
Christ entered into the
Hebrews 10:19,20 -
“(19) Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest
[HAGIA, or “first apartment”] by the blood of Jesus, (20) By a new and living
way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil [KATAPETASMA, or first
veil], that is to say, his flesh.
Take careful notice to the Greek when Paul says "veil" and
"second veil". Also take careful notice to the differences
between "hagia", "hagion", and "hagia hagion". In
10:19-the KJV incorrectly translates "hagia" as "holiest"
In 9:8-the KJV incorrectly translates "hagia" as "holiest of
all." In both 10:19 and 9:8. The KJV ignorantly translated
"hagia" as the second apartment. Paul's 9:2 definition would render
it the first apartment, and the Old Testament name for it as "holy
place" would also render it the first apartment.
GE:
If the writer of Hebrews spoke about mortal priests, it would have been
true what you say; but Christ was no earthly, mortal priest. He is the High
Priest of the Most High God after the order of ETERNAL LIFE and THEREFORE, when
He ‘entered-into-Sanctuary’, He HAD to have entered once-for-all and THEREFORE
could not possibly ever have entered more than once into any two compartmented
sanctuary like the one made with hands on earth to make effective atonement for
the sins of all the elect. Christ entered the ‘heavenly sanctuary’ ON EARTH. He
entered in BEFORE, and TO, make atonement for “FOREVER”.
He entered not having been a priest from the tribe of Levi, but from
Judah concerning which tribe the Word says nothing about priesthood, and since
He DID accomplish and finished, and perfected reconciliation for forevermore,
He had to have been the High Priest after the order of Melchisedec— High Priest
WITHOUT genealogical credentials whatsoever.
Christ then entered into the Sanctuary of Final and
Once-for-Ever-Atonement FOR which entering-in to SHED atoning blood of his suffering
for sins, He HAD to have been High Priest of Almighty God FIRST, and had to
HAVE been ANOINTED and qualified, FOR to Enter and FOR to Suffer and FOR to Die
and FOR to be Buried and … FOR TO RISE again!
So it is not the sanctuary or place or division or earthliness that
makes of God’s Sanctuary and Most Holy Place “The Heavenly”; but it is CHRIST’S
dignity and holiness and ACT and PRESENCE-AT-ENTERING-IN, that makes of the
sanctuary and most holy place in the “mount Horeb Place of God”, “The Heavenly
Sanctuary”.
It is Jesus’ “making SACRIFICE
of Himself” that makes of the FORE-court of the sanctuary on earth IN ALL AND
ONE, the Most Holy Place. And it is the INTERMENT
of Jesus’ body that makes of his GRAVE, “the most holy place” of ‘the heavenly
sanctuary’ ON EARTH.
Christ’s BURIAL “through his flesh” … having been “laid there” … “beyond
the veil” … “in the shadow of death” … “closed about / hidden”, under “skins”
of DEATH … “in darkened” and “place of safe-keeping”-OF-HIS-GRAVE … is what
made of “Joseph’s GRAVE”, “The-Most-Holy-Place-WITHIN” and “Ark of the
Testimony” of God’s Sanctuary.
“There laid they Him” … “That Holy Thing” … “which remained”; “There
laid they Him” … “Secluded / Holy Acre” … “the Man of Nazareth”.
“Jesus of
“The Most Holy Place is His Name In-Being-Rested-Up-Again” … “from the
dead”, and “from” death and grave … “from” “IN the earth”— “from” “in the VERY
HEART of the earth”. Because there – in his grave – the LORD – in over-hovering
Shekinah of his Holy Spirit – watched over the body of Jesus, and “would not
suffer His Holy One to see corruption … seeing the RESURRECTION of Christ
(“from the dead”)— that his soul was not left in hell, neither did his flesh
see corruption.”
SDA:
Once the Greek speaks, our sanctuary doctrine cannot be torn down. In
fact, there is not one single mention of Christ interceding for us in the
GE:
You are contradicting the Scriptures and yourself!
SDA:
… There is not one single mention of Christ interceding for us in the
So according to Hebrews 9:3, Paul uses the Greek expression “hagia
hagion”, which means “holy of holies”. He used “ta hagia” when referring to
just the sanctuary or just the “holies” (holy place) (9:2). Same with verse 8.
The fact is, all the way from Hebrews 9:8 – 13:12, whenever it is referencing
Christ’s present ministration, Paul uses “ta hagia”, not “hagia hagion”.
GE:
Whenever sweeping generalisations like yours are made, there is a big
probability facts are stretched beyond factuality. So, let’s see …
Hebrews 8:2
“… We have an High Priest
[We never had just a Priest in Christ.] …
“… We have an High Priest, Minister of the sanctuary
[“of the holy things”, ‘tohn hagiohn’]
“… and of the True Tabernacle
[‘tehs skehnehs thes alehthinehs’]
“… which the Lord pitched and not man
[‘hehn epehksen ho Kurios ouk anthrohpos’]
……
It is NOT “… referencing Christ’s
present ministration”, but to his EARTHLY, ONCE FOR ALL and PAST “ministry
of The Sanctuary and True Tabernacle”. “We” presently, “have such an High
Priest” who had FINISHED that ministry of his and now “IS SET at the right hand of God”— “Is set”
or “Sat”, meaning, our HIGH Priest – Jesus – who now “sits / rests” / “is
seated / is rested / is enthroned” in ‘heavenly’ position of exaltation where
He Himself is the “True Tabernacle which the Lord and not man spanned / erected
/ pitched / raised up [“from the dead”] IN THE RIGHT HAND OF THE THRONE of the
Greatness in the heavens”— “In the heavens”, Plural, showing the spiritual “heavens”
and the spiritual “sanctuary” and the spiritual “most holy place” even “OF THE
GREATNESS”— “the Greatness”, God Triune who raised up and exalted Christ from
the dead into his Most Holy Self onto his Throne in equal position of Dignity
and Majesty!
The ‘sanctuary’ spoken of, and its ‘holies’ or ‘holy things’ themselves
are speaking of “such an High Priest” as “we have” in Christ Jesus. And it is
the High Priest spoken of as “The True Tabernacle” as it is the High Priest spoken
of as “The Majesty in the heavens”.
Therefore, definitely and definitively, “… when the Greek is put to the test. Every. Single. Verse. is pertaining
to the Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary” which is its Most Holy High
Priest— its ‘Holies of Holies’— “such an High Priest” as “we have” in Jesus
Christ— “not man-made” or “made-with-hands”, but “ordained” and “seated”, “on
the right hand of / on par with the Throne of the Majesty in the heavens”— God
Almighty, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
And therefore definitely and definitively, There is not one single
mention of Christ not interceding for us in the
SDA:
Regarding the word “hagion”, Abingdon"s Strong's Exhaustive
Concordance of the Bible defines the word thus:
39. hagion {hag'-ee-on} neuter of 40; a sacred thing (i.e. spot):---holiest (of
all), holy place, sanctuary.
According to the above definition (s), the word can mean
'holiest','holy place' or 'sanctuary'. This is where the problem begins. This
is the reason why many Bibles,(particularly modern translations) use one of the
three terms to define 'hagia' or 'hagion' or 'hagia hagion' as the same thing.
GE:
No; it is not how “modern translations use … define 'hagia' or 'hagion'
or 'hagia hagion' as the same thing”; it is the Bible – in particular Hebrews –
that ‘defines the word thus’ and INTERCHANGEABLY uses it for both the earthly,
bygone ‘sanctuary’, in whole or in part or further parts, AND, for the
‘heavenly’, present and everlasting Sanctuary, Jesus Christ Himself, always, in
indescribable glory and whole, and therefore, more often than not, with the
Plural in whatever combination or declension.
SDA:
The author of the Book of Hebrews however, was very consistent in its
use. In fact, the author (of Hebrews) defines its use in the first three verses
of Hebrews chapter 9. He used 'hagion' to mean the entire two apartment
sanctuary {9:1}, he used 'hagia' to define 'holy place'{9:2} and he used 'hagia
hagion' to define the 'holiest' or "
GE:
You have noticed it yourself – contradicting yourself of course –
because WHAT, is the difference between (quoting you),
“'hagion' [Singular] to mean the entire two [Plural] apartment sanctuary {9:1}”,
and, (quoting you),
“'hagia' [Plural] to define 'holy place'{9:2}”— a
Singular sanctuary?
9:1 “Then verily …
“…the FIRST and worldly sanctuary”-
‘hagion’- ‘holy (place)’,
Singular “… to mean
the entire two apartment sanctuary {9:1}” …
“… also had ordinances-of-service …
“… because the tabernacle / sanctuary”-
‘skehneh’- 'holy (place)',
Singular …
“… which is called holies”-
‘hagia’- ‘holies’ Plural “… to define 'holy place'{9:2}”.
There simply is no difference; it is the one and same, “entire two apartment sanctuary”, “… because
in fact the worldly holy place [‘to hagion kosmikon’ Singular] was
prepared the first tabernacle [‘kateskeuastheh heh prohteh skehneh’] …”— “the entire two apartment sanctuary”
Plural-Singular] “… called (the) holies”, Singular-Plural for “the entire two apartment sanctuary”.
“…The first-‘skehneh’”, or, “The first-“'hagion' to mean the entire two apartment
sanctuary {9:1}” is the same thing.
“The first ‘skehneh’ meant the “'hagion'” or “entire two
apartment sanctuary” of “{9:1}”
therefore— “in the which “entire two
apartment sanctuary” were both lampstand and the [golden] table / alter and
the showbread(-table) which things are called ‘holy things’”— “holy things”
pertaining ‘the most holy place’ or “the holies”, ‘hagia’ Plural in verse 2,
but that were “holy things” standing in the “holy place” in verse 1, ‘to
hagion’ Singular.
To the writer both and or any of the Singular and Plural was ‘to mean’ / were ‘to mean’ both or any of the “entire
two apartment sanctuary”. Why? Simply because for the writer – never mind
for translators – Jesus in Person of the Resurrected Crucified Christ was, “The
Sanctuary” and, or, “The Most Holy”.
SDA:
The author of Hebrews used 'hagia' in the following chapters and
verses: 8:2; 9:2, 8, 12, 24, 25; 10:19; 13:11, which means
GE:
“The author … did not use 'hagia
hagion'”; what’s the use then you give meanings to things the writer not
even used?
As you say, “The author of
Hebrews used 'hagia'”. So let’s check up if 'hagia' as you claim “means Holy Place” in “8:2; 9:2, 8, 12,
24, 25; 10:19; 13:11” … and let us remember what you mean by ‘hagia’ is some
literal “apartment” in some “literal” kind of “sanctuary in heaven” … that is not nor was, upon earth— but,
according to you, the “most holy
apartment … in heaven” which
Jesus as late as
in 1844 for the first time ever, entered into.
[I wonder what the use for this ‘heavenly sanctuary’ used to be all the
aeons before and since – according to the SDAs – it was shown to Moses and he
made “a copy” of it; and what it’s use since Jesus’ time until ‘unveiled’ and
inaugurated in AD 1844? But …]
Hebrews 8:2,
The writer is speaking, saying, “WE, HAVE”— Present Continues Tense in
the WRITER’S lifetime, anywhere late first century AD. Says he, “We have such
an HIGH Priest …”.
O no, say SDAs, Jesus was not a HIGH priest at that time yet. At that
time, “Jesus fulfilled the first facet or
first agenda of the Sanctuary … it was a non-High Priestly agenda, he never
accomplished the High Priestly Ministry on earth” or – according to the
SDAs – before 1844.
Shall we believe the SDAs or the writer of Hebrews? Or shall we believe
God and his Word that Christ never was ‘non-High
Priest’ but ever, “according to the Law of ETERNAL LIFE, HIGH Priest of
Almighty God”?
“We have such an HIGH Priest who IS SET”- ‘ekathisen’— “HAD
sit down on the right hand of the Throne”— “the Throne” IN, AND, “the
Throne” OF, THE MOST HOLY PLACE of the Sanctuary of God, immediately and
directly “WHEN God raised Him FROM the dead SEATING Him AT his own right
hand in / of HEAVENLY places …” Ephesians 1:19,20. “Places-of-seat”
or “Places-of-office”— “Place / Seat / Office of HIGH-Priesthood”! “… WHEN
God raised Him FROM the dead SEATING Him AT his own right hand …” NOT, in AD
1844!
“We have such an HIGH Priest who IS SET on the right hand of the
Throne-of-Majesty-in-heavenly-HIGH-Priesthood.”
Everything is the other, Throne = Majesty
= Heavenly = HIGH = Priesthood. ‘The
author of the Book of Hebrews was very consistent –“set” – in the use’ whether of the Plural
‘hagia’ or the Singular ‘hagion’ or of other words like ‘skehneh’— He uses them
all for the sanctuary, whether the sanctuary on earth or The ‘Sanctuary-Heavenly’
that is Jesus Christ— whether on earth or in heaven.
Just look at Hebrews 8:2! “We have such an HIGH Priest
who is … a
Minister of the Sanctuary and of the true tabernacle”, where “Sanctuary”- ‘Hagiohn’
Plural at once is “Tabernacle”- ‘skehnehs’- Singular. For the writer the
Plural and the Singular have IDENTICAL meaning. And again it does not matter
for him if it is the ‘Sanctuary’ or the ‘Holy’ or the ‘Holies’ or the
‘Tabernacle’— the writer means EVERYTHING to show forth and magnify the True
Tabernacle of “God-with-us”, the True Tabernacle of God wherein “we-in Him”
forever are-with-God— the Son, that Good Shepherd of us all, Jesus Christ our
Lord.
But MORE: The Son, whom “the God of PEACE, BROUGHT AGAIN FROM THE
DEAD and RESTED ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE THRONE IN HEAVENLY MAJESTY” –of-HIGH-Priesthood
in the uttermost holy place and Ark of the Testimony in Joseph’s sepulchre in
Horeb the mountain of God, “HIS NAME
BEING RESTED-UP-AGAIN IS THE HOLIES OF HOLIES”.
Hebrews 9:2 …
“The most holy place” from the Plural, ‘hagia’ which SDA avers is a “literal” ‘temple-building’ in some space in the heavens into which God’s
throne “from elsewhere” “moved” as recently as in 1844 AD …?
Let’s see …
“There was a tabernacle made, an original, wherein was the
candlestick etcetera, which is called
‘the sanctuary’”- ‘hagia’ Plural.
I should guess it refers to the erstwhile ‘sanctuary’ OF THE JEWS?!
Here, though, is how SDAs say, “Hebrews
used 'hagia' … which means
EXACTLY!
Then how do they manage to find …
“It is evident that … the
Antitypical Day of Atonement began in 1844 when Christ ceased his exclusive
ministration in the Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary and opened the door to
the Most Holy” …?
Remember the writer “did not use
'hagia hagion'(Most Holy)”; nevertheless according to SDA, Hebrews 8:2;
9:2, 8, 12, 24, 25; 10:19; 13:11, “which
means Holy Place”, ARE THE VERY SCRIPTURES THAT SUPPOSEDLY PROVE the ‘exclusive ministration’ in ‘the Heavenly Sanctuary’ in “the Most Holy”, ‘since 1844’! They have blown up their own weapons and ammunition
arsenal and armoury!
SDA:
As far as Bible translations are concerned regarding sanctuary
terminology in the book of Hebrews, the NIV is the worst. The KJV is a large
improvement, but the NASB is the most accurate.
For example, Hebrews 9:8 in the KJV and NIV state:
“The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the HOLIEST OF ALL
was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet
standing”(Hebrews 9:8, KJV)
“The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the
Compared to the NASB:
“The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the
The NASB renders Hebrews 9:8 correctly, as Paul already defined his
rules in verses 1-3.“Hagia” means the
GE:
“The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the HOLIEST OF ALL
was not yet made manifest, while as the first
tabernacle was yet
standing”(Hebrews 9:8, KJV)
Exactly!
How can it be clearer, Jesus Christ Most Holy Sanctuary of God
SUCCEEDED “the first tabernacle”; and that He is “The Way into” and “Holiest of
All” of God’s immediate Mediatory Omni-Presence— in and through Him?!
Throughout Hebrews the writer contrasts the EARTHLY ‘sanctuary-temple’
with CHRIST’S High-Priestly Ministration of sin-atoning-sacrifice and
-offering. He therefore compares the earthly mortal priesthood with the Eternal
Tabernacle Ministration of the Living God through – and IN – Jesus Christ. He
does not compare or contrast different phases or different ‘apartments’ or different ‘priesthoods’ in a hallucinatory ‘sanctuary in heaven’.
Do not CREATE difficulties where there are none!
All puny grammatical or linguistic distinctions in technical small stuff
disappear before and in the overwhelming One and Faithful Witness and
Fulfilment, even in Jesus Christ Himself the Most Holy Sanctuary of God—
Himself being the exact ‘God-given and therefore eschatological imperative
WHOLE AND WHOLENESS’ [Lohmeyer] of all and every detail of the ‘Heavenly
Sanctuary’.
It is nonsense “Paul already defined his rules in verses 1-3.“Hagia”
means the
Therefore denied, “in verses
1-3.“Hagia” means the
Alright, … “Hebrews 8:2; 9:2, 8,
12, 24, 25; 10:19; 13:11”
Hebrews 9:8,
“The Holy Spirit this signifying, that the Way
[‘hodon’ for Jesus Christ resurrected from the dead]
into the Holiest-of-all
[‘hagion’ Singular for Jesus Christ resurrected into LIFE]
was not yet made manifest
[Christ was not yet sacrificed and resurrected]
while as the first tabernacle
[‘skehnehs’ Singular]
was yet standing—
which first tabernacle was a figure for the time then present
in which were offered gifts and sacrifices
both that could not make him that did the service
perfect as pertaining to the conscience …”
Nowhere and no how is mention being made of or reference being made to
any sort of ‘heavenly’, or “
But “the Way into the Holiest-of-all” is metaphor for Jesus
Christ resurrected from the dead [“I AM The Way … I AM The Door.”] at “the
time then present” when still “were offered gifts and sacrifices”—
which was ‘BC’- ‘before Christ’ the writer is speaking about— nowhere near 1844
AD, ‘after Christ’!
Therefore “the first [earthly] tabernacle / sanctuary
/ temple / holy place / most holy place yet standing at the
time … was a figure of … the Way into the Holiest-of-all” “the Living
Way” Jesus Christ crucified, died, buried and the third day raised from the
dead again.
In other words, Hebrews 9:8 has NOTHING of SDA’s high and learned sounding
worldly wisdom in it. It has been written for the simply in Christ believing
Christians; not for the ‘self-inspired’.
SDA:
The NASB also renders Hebrews 10:19,20 correctly:
“Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the HOLY PLACE
by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us
through the VEIL [FIRST VEIL, NOT SECOND VEIL], that is, His flesh, and since
we have a great priest over the house of God”(Hebrews 10:19,20, NASB)
These proper renderings harmonize well with Hebrews 9:12 which is
rendered correctly in the KJV Bible:
“Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he
entered in ONCE into the
having obtained
eternal redemption for us.”(Hebrews 9:12)
There is NO mention of Christ’s ministration in the
GE:
Jesus became flesh, once. He did not have a body twice so that He could
“enter the holy place by the blood of” more than one “veil that is His flesh”.
[Cf. Hebrews 4:8, 6:6, 10:18] BOTH veils of the earthly tabernacle, the “gate”
from outside to inside the sanctuary; and the “middle wall” Ephesians 2:14 or
“middle …” or “partition … of the court” [‘chatser’]— where (once again!) the
“court” stands for the ‘sanctuary’— for the whole of it, its middle-part
representative of its whole and of both its ‘apartments’— “holies” on either side. See 1Kings 8:64 2Chronicles
7:7 2Kings 20:4. Jesus’ “flesh” formed the “broken down” “veil” between his
eternal pre-existence and his eternal “taken-up-again-Life” after.
Hebrews 10:19-21
“Having therefore, brethren, confidence to enter unto / into…
“… the Holiest /
—Jesus Christ God’s immediate omni-PRESENCE—
“… by the blood of Jesus …
“… by a New and Living Way …
“… which He consecrated for us …
“… through the veil …
“… this is, the flesh of Him …
“… and great priesthood (OF Him) …
“… over the Household of God …
“… Let us THEREFORE, DRAW NEAR!
As anyone can see, the writer speaks about Jesus Christ in whom believers
may find a Safe-Haven and Protector for entering into God’s Most Holy Presence.
The writer’s is no academic disquisition over technicalities of temple
structures, formalities and initiations such as SDA would like to make out.
Just like the word for the Singular “Sabbath Day” is or can or may be a
Plural, the Plural, ‘hagia’- ‘holies’, may be and can be and often is the
SINGLE WHOLE of, the divisions and or parts of the ‘sanctuary’; OR, like in the
several instances encountered in this conversation on Hebrews, the unique
personification of anything and everything contained in ‘the sanctuary’, Jesus
Christ “High Priest” and “Most Holy Sanctuary” of all Christian confidence and
boldness.
It is a matter of IDIOM; not of grammar.
And it is understood and embraced “with a true HEART in full assurance
of FAITH, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil CONSCIENCE as to The Body
(of Christ’s Church) in Cleansing, having water sprinkled” … SPIRITUALLY.
Hebrews 10:22.
SDA:
… “Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he
entered in ONCE into the
having obtained
eternal redemption for us.”(Hebrews 9:12)
There is NO mention of Christ’s ministration in the
GE:
Where was Jesus crucified, and where suffered He “unto death”, the
death of death? Where shod He sweat like blood and where gave He his spirit
into his Father’s hands, and DIED “making Sacrifice of Himself”?
In the most holy place inside the temple built by the hands of Herod?
No!
“BY HIS OWN blood He entered in once into the ‘hagia’-
Plural for the Singular
“Court” of his OWN “having obtained eternal redemption for us.”
SDA:
Once Christ entered, his meditorial and intercessory ministration
began! The moment Christ steps out of the
GE:
Once Christ ‘entered’— into
LIFE … once He rose up from the dead again … once He came OUT of the most holy
place of his abode IN DEATH, the GRAVE and ark of the Testimony of the LAW—
DEATH and “the dead”, his ‘mediatorial
and intercessory ministration’ began! That is RIGHT That, is TRUTH!
“The moment Christ steps out of
the
That moment, Christ ‘entered’
into LIFE! Once He rose up from the dead again and “step(ped) out of the Most Holy Place” and ‘ark of the Testimony’ in
the sepulchre-cave of Joseph of Arimathea ‘Height-of-Rama-Bitterness’, Jesus
had Atonement and Reconciliation MADE and DONE, and his ‘mediatorial and intercessory ministration’ could follow— John
20:17, Matthew 28:18-20 Mark 16:19,20 Luke 24:49.
SDA:
Once Christ entered, his meditorial and intercessory ministration
began! The moment Christ steps out of the
GE:
Wherever Christ goes, He goes Mediator between God and man because his
Priesthood is High Priesthood after the Order and Law of ETERNAL LIFE. The
moment Christ entered in into God’s Rest, and had “taken up (his) LIFE again”—
“being RESTED-UP-AGAIN HIS NAME IS HOLIEST-OF-ALL”, He became “a Life-Giving-Spirit”, and his
mediatory and intercessory ministration could begin.
SDA:
Therefore, the fact that he is MEDIATING on our behalf, PROVES, that
his blood once shed for all is still active in the salvation of mankind. As
long as we are still here on this planet earth sinning, Christ’s High Priestly
ministration has NOT ended. If it was ended, what is He waiting for? He should
just come quickly, and pick up his bride.
GE:
Who said Christ’s High Priestly ministration has ended? False
accusation! But his making sacrifice of Himself through the shedding of his
blood, did. Not his blood, but his LIFE – resurrected from the grave LIFE – “is
still active in the salvation of mankind”.
It is because you SDAs deny Christ’s HIGH Priestly ministry ON EARTH
before He resurrected, that you form all these hallucinatory misconceptions of
Christ’s Priesthood and Ministry.
SDA:
With this understanding that his blood once shed for all is still active
in the salvation of mankind, almost all arguments raised pertaining to the
sanctuary falls to pieces. It is evident that Hebrews does not conflict with
the understanding that the Antitypical Day of Atonement began in 1844 when
Christ ceased his exclusive ministration in the Holy Place of the Heavenly
Sanctuary and opened the door to the Most Holy.
GE:
A more absurd and blatant cauldron of self-contradictions could not be
imagined! What is going on in your brains God gave you people?! It is evident
that the Antitypical Day of Atonement was when Christ “once for all”,
“finished” atoning bloodshed through having had “made sacrifice of Himself” and
“perfected” Divine Commitment (Covenant) of Eternal LIFE and Reconciliation,
Peace and Rest for all, for each, and for everyone He did what He did “saving
to the uttermost”, “once for all”, and “forevermore” ‘exclusively’ ALL-inclusive— THUS and thus ONLY: through having
raised from the dead incorruptible and unconquerable. That is the only correct
and never conflicting understanding of Hebrews.
SDA:
Revelation gives a clear allusion to the time the door to the Most Holy
would be opened:
“And the temple [NAOS] of God was opened in heaven, and
there was seen in
his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and
thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”(Revelation 11:19)
GE:
“I would have you wise unto that which is simple concerning evil … the
God of peace shall bruise Satan.”
Find the once for all historic realisation of the dramatic scene in
Revelation 11:19, in Matthew 27:50 to 28:1-4 = Luke 10:18.
The going open of the Veil Mark 15:38 Matthew 27:51 Luke 23:45 (Luke
10:18) is Christ’s DEATH “in the flesh” Hebrews 5:7; 10:20 Ephesians 2:15. And
the going open of the
“… Christ being put to death
[‘thanatohtheís men’] …
“… but in the flesh quickened, by the Spirit
[‘ sarkí dzohpoiehtheís de, pneúmati’] …
“… in that day a Man shall go … into the cleft of the rocks … and for
fear of the glory of His Majesty when He ariseth to shake terribly the earth …
In that day the LORD will take away the veils … In that day shall The Branch of
the LORD be beautiful and glorious.” Isaiah 2:21; 3:18,23; 4:1.
“And they sang the Song of Moses, the Song of the Servant of God and of
the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous the works, Lord God Almighty; just and
true thy ways, Thou, King of saints!” Revelation 15:3
“Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this, Song Unto the LORD,
and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD for He hath triumphed gloriously.
The LORD is my Strength and Song; He is become my Salvation … I WILL PREPARE
HIM AN HABITATION … Thou shalt bring them in and plant them in the mountain of
thine inheritance, ‘THE PLACE’, o LORD thou hast made for THEE to dwell in, ‘THE
SANCTUARY’, o LORD, thy hands have established: ‘THE-LORD-SHALL-REIGN’.” Exodus
15
“… saying”, of Jesus Christ, every word …
SDA:
The Greek word for temple is “naos”, which has a meaning of “inner
shrine”. This is referring to the
“And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple [naos – or “inner
shrine”] of the tabernacle [skene – or full sanctuary] of the testimony in
heaven was opened.”(Revelation 15:5)
What many fail to comprehend is that the presence of the Father in the
GE:
>> “… the
presence of the Father in the
Go squat in your own hand-made shadowy heavenly shack!
>> “… the
Father would one day move His throne to the
“The
The Father’s Throne is “at the right hand of God”— the Father
whose arm you try to twist.
The Father’s Throne is where Jesus Christ “is”— where “God set Him”. The
Father’s Throne is, Jesus Christ.
The Father’s “Throne is ESTABLISHED FOREVER”.
You through the push of your bureau pencil ‘move’ God’s Throne around wherever
your lost mind wonders.
SDA:
We have CLEAR allusions from scripture that the Father’s throne was in
the
John sees in vision Christ in the
“And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of
man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a
golden girdle.” Revelation 1:13
Question: Where are the 7 candlesticks?
Answer: In the
“And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the
saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. And the angel took the
CENSOR, and filled it with fire of the ALTAR, and cast it into the earth: and
there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.”
Revelation 8:4,5
Question: Where is the smoke of incense, the censer, and the
altar?
Answer: In the
GE:
The incense represented God’s Presence; the incense was burned “in the
SDA:
Now notice who is missing in Revelation 4. It is Jesus.
4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [Door to
GE:
Re: >> “Revelation
gives a clear allusion to the time this door would be opened”<<
“I AM The Door” says Christ, to this day as always before!
A delusive ‘allusion’ then, that “Revelation gives a clear allusion to the time this door would be opened”.
Christ “Jesus … is missing in
Revelation 4”?!
Jesus in verse 1 … “The first Voice which said, I will shew thee things
which must be hereafter.”
Jesus in verse 2 … “One sat on the Throne.”
Jesus in verse 3 … “He that sat was to look upon.”
Jesus in verse 4 … “round about, The Throne.”
Jesus in verse 5 … “out of, The Throne.”
Jesus in verse 6 … “before, The Throne.”
Jesus in verse 8 … “Lord God Almighty which was and is and is to come.”
Jesus in verse 9 … “Thanks to Him that sat on the Throne who liveth for
ever and ever.”
Jesus in verse 10 … “before Him that sat on the Throne … that liveth
for ever and ever.”
Jesus in verse 11 … “Thou art worthy, o Lord.”
SDA
… 4:1 After this I looked, and,
behold, a door [Door to
4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit; and, behold, a THRONE WAS SET in
heaven, and ONE sat on the throne.[Notice, Jesus isn’t here yet…this is the
FATHER SITTING ON THE THRONE)
4:3 And HE [the FATHER] that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a
sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like
unto an emerald.
4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I
saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on
their heads crowns of gold.
4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and
there were SEVEN LAMPS OF FIRE BURNING BEFORE THE THRONE, which are the seven
Spirits of God.
4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in
the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of
eyes before and behind. Revelation 4:1-6.
Here is brought to view a twofold scene. On the one hand, before the
throne are the "seven lamps burning" and the "Lamb as it had
been slain," showing that the throne was "set" there to serve in
time of probation. The light from the candlestick represents the light of truth
in the church while the blood of the Lamb is atoning for sinful beings.
GE:
“I AM The Light”
“…Jesus isn’t here yet…this is
the FATHER SITTING ON THE THRONE”?!
Jesus in verse 1 … “The first Voice which said, I will shew thee things
which must be hereafter.”
“The revelation of Jesus Christ
to shew things which must shortly come to pass.” 1:1.
Jesus in verse 1 … “The Voice as of a trumpet…”
“… a great Voice as of a trumpet, saying, I AM Alpha and Omega …”
1:10,11.
Jesus in verse 2 … “the Throne.”
“I will grant him that overcometh to sit WITH ME in MY Throne even as I
overcame and AM SET DOWN WITH MY FATHER IN HIS THRONE.” 3:21.
Jesus in verse 3 … “He that sat was to look upon.”
“I LOOKED, and lo, a Lamb stood, and with Him an hundred and forty and
four thousand having their Father’s Name written in their foreheads … and they
sang a new Song before the Throne.” 14:1,3.
Jesus in verse 4 … “round about, The Throne.”
“The Lamb which is in the midst of the Throne.” 7:17.
Jesus in verse 5 … “out of, The Throne.”
“A pure river of water of life proceeding out of the Throne of God AND
OF THE LAMB.” 22:1.
Jesus in verse 6 … “before, The Throne.”
“Therefore are they before the Throne of God … and He that sitteth on
the throne shall dwell among them.” 7:15.
Jesus in verse 8 … “Lord God Almighty which was and is and is to come.”
1:8; 11:17; 21:22; 22:13; 21:6 16:14c/15a.
Jesus in verse 9 … “Thanks to Him that sat on the Throne who liveth for
ever and ever.”
“We give Thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty that Thou hast taken to Thee
thy great power and hast reigned.” 11:17.
Jesus in verse 10 … “before Him that sat on the Throne … that liveth
for ever and ever.”
“I AM HE.” 1:18.
Jesus in verse 11 … “Thou art worthy, o Lord.”
“Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power … and honour … and
glory …” 5:12.
SDA:
On the other hand, upon the throne sits the Ancient of days, the Judge,
surrounded by the jury of twenty-four elders plus the angelic witnesses,
"ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands" of
them, plus the four beasts (who, being "redeemed" "out of every
kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"-Rev. 5:8, 9,-are therefore
symbolical of the saints,- all those whose sins will be blotted from the books
of records-just as the beasts of Daniel 7 are symbolical of all the kingdoms
which will perish in their sins), with the Lamb, our Advocate, in the midst.
All this shows a combined mediatorial-judicial work.
One might ask, where is this scene taking place? It is taking place in
the
Now so far, we see that when John in vision beheld the door-the veil-as
it opened to the Most Holy apartment of the heavenly sanctuary, he was
permitted to look within, and that the things which he saw, were to take place
"HEREAFTER" from his time; showing thereby that at the time of his
vision (about 96 A. D.) the
Most Holy
apartment was closed.
GE:
Falsehood! Blasphemy! Rubbish!
“Thy Way o God, is in the Sanctuary”
“I AM The Way.”
SDA:
In addition to this, we shall now see from Daniel's prophecy
that the judgment
throne was set up in the Most Holy apartment of the heavenly sanctuary AFTER
the "little horn" of Daniel 7 came up. This event transpiring “after”
the Little Horn is significant, as it demolishes the theory that Christ entered
into the
Notice:
"I considered the horns," says the seer, "and, behold
there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of
the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes
like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. I beheld till the
thrones were CAST [PLACED], and the Ancient of days did sit, Whose garment was
white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool: His throne was like
the fiery flame, and His WHEELS as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came
forth from before Him, thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times
ten thousands stood before Him: the judgment was set, and the books were
opened." Dan. 7:8 -10.
These verses reveal that after "the judgment was set, and the
books were opened," "the Son of man," Christ, was then
"brought" to a position, NOT at "the right hand of God,"
"the Ancient of days," but "near before" Him (Dan. 7:8-10,
13).
Both John's and Daniel's visions reveal that the throne in the
sanctuary was not there from the beginning of the creation of God; or from the
days of Moses; or yet from the hour that Christ ascended on high; or even from
the days of pagan Rome; that, indeed, it was not "set up" until after
the fall of pagan Rome, when the "little horn" of the non-descript
beast came up-in the days of Ecclesiastical Rome (Dan. 7:7-12, 21, 22).
Elsewhere than in the sanctuary, therefore, is God's Eternal throne room.
GE:
Directly contradicting yourself!
Again, nothing than blasphemous untruths and manhandling of Scripture!
SDA:
In the earthly sanctuary the high priest (typifying Christ) officiated
first in the holy apartment throughout the year, then upon the day of
Atonement, the day of cleansing the sanctuary and judging the people, he
officiated in the Most Holy for one day only.
GE:
Lying inaccuracies!
SDA:
This twofold service signifies that in the heavenly sanctuary, the High
Priest, Christ, must necessarily first officiate in the holy apartment up to
the antitypical day of Atonement, then during that day, He must officiate in
the Most Holy apartment, before the throne.
GE:
Just now you said, “God's Eternal
throne room … is … (e)lsewhere than in the sanctuary…”!
Then, “the judgment throne was
set up in the Most Holy apartment of the heavenly sanctuary”!
Then, “the Ancient of days … sits
upon the Throne” and that “this is taking place in the
Now you say “in the Most Holy
apartment” is “before the throne”!
“Heaven is the Throne of God.” Isaiah 66:1.
God’s Throne has one immovable “habitation … Justice and Judgment.”
Psalm 89:14.
“Thy Seed will establish His Kingdom; He shall build an House for My
Name and I will establish The Throne of His Kingdom FOR EVER.”
“The LORD was My Stay … In my distress I called upon the LORD and
cried unto My God and He did hear My Voice out of
his
“The LORD liveth; and blessed be My Rock; exalted be the God of The
Rock of my salvation. … He is the
“I have set the LORD ALWAYS before Me because He is at My right
hand— I SHALL NOT BE MOVED!”
“In God is My salvation and My glory: the ROCK of my strength— my
SANCTUARY is IN GOD; He only is My ROCK and My Salvation— My only Defence (in
Judgment); I shall not be moved the least.”
“Trust in Him at ALL TIMES … pour your heart out BEFORE Him:
GOD-FOR-US is our SANCTUARY!”
“Thou o God CONFIRMED thine inheritance … They have seen Thy Goings,
O God, the Goings of My God, My King IN THE SANCTUARY.”
“I saw the LORD sitting upon His THRONE”— the Throne and Most
Holy of his Holy Temple, “HIGH AND LIFTED UP, and his PROCESSION / MOTION”—
in and with the Throne, “FILLED the Temple … Holy, Holy, Holy, the LORD of
hosts: the WHOLE EARTH-FULL-OF-HIS-GLORY”— Most Holy His Throne “the
WHOLE EARTH-OF-HIS-GLORY-FULL”— Christ, “High Priest … RESTED on the Right
Hand of the MAJESTY-IN-THE-HEAVEN”— Singular for Plural of ALL ‘heavenly high
places’- ascended FAR ABOVE all principality and power and might and dominion,
and every Name” … including God’s? … “that is named not only in this world but
also in that age which is to come.”
There are NO higher heights in all heavens of heaven, than “the HEIGHTS
OF THE EARTH the LORD … caused Thee”— the Lord Jesus Christ, “TO RIDE UPON”,
and no nobler food “the LORD … fed Thee” with, than “the riches of the glory of
his INHERITANCE IN THE SAINTS … according to the working of his MIGHTY POWER WHICH
HE WROUGHT IN CHRIST WHEN HE RAISED
HIM FROM THE DEAD AND SET HIM AT HIS
OWN RIGHT HAND IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES”— high places IN CHRIST the LORD’S Most
Holy Sanctuary.
For “in Him” or not at all are all “His Inheritance” “RISEN
WITH CHRIST” and
are we “grant(ed) to sit WITH ME IN MY THRONE … AS I AM SEATED DOWN WITH MY
FATHER IN HIS THRONE.” “God quickened us together with Christ and hath raised
us up together with Him, and made US SIT TOGETHER IN HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST
JESUS.”
“A glorious High THRONE from the beginning is the PLACE of our
SANCTUARY— O LORD the Hope of
SDA:
Thus the earthly services, too, repudiate the idea that Christ entered
the Most Holy apartment of the heavenly sanctuary immediately after His
ascension....
GE:
You keep on getting it wrong! Not “immediately
after His ascension”, but immediately BY HIS RESURRECTION IN HIS OWN HAVING
BEEN RAISED BY GOD “FROM, THE DEAD” are his Inheritance “us-who-believe”,
ascended on high with Christ and made seated in the throne of the Father of us
all, its right hand side in fact in equity in and through and with CHRIST!
SDA:
Now let’s compare Revelation 15:8 with 1 Kings 8:10,11:
“And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from
his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues
of the seven angels were fulfilled.”(Rev 15:8)
“And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy
[place], that the cloud filled the house of the LORD, So that the priests could
not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had
filled the house of the LORD.”(1 Kings
8:10,11)
Christ can’t minister if He is not in the Most Holy. Christ sat down at
the right hand of God, but God was not in the Holy of
Holies.
GE:
Blasphemous NEGATING GOD’S WORD!
Christ cannot minister if He is not the Most Holy IN PERSON.
Christ sat down at the right hand of God, and “RESTED-UP-AGAIN HIS NAME
BEING HOLIES OF HOLIES”— “GOD-IN-CHRIST”, “GOD IN HIS SANCTUARY” Jesus Christ.
But SDA blasphemes, “… but God was not in the Holy of Holies”!
SDA:
The "thrones" were "cast" (plural), meaning, they
were "PLACED" (Dan 7:9), then John, who lived WELL after Christ went
to heaven describes when these thrones were "SET" in Revelation 4, by
describing that these things happen, and goes on to describe things that will
take place “HEREAFTER. Once Mike understands this, a whole new world of
Biblical understanding would open up to him, and a light bulb will go
off!
He entered the
Place.
More conclusive evidence that Christ’s ministration was in the
GE:
But what have you been telling us all along? … that “Christ sat down at the right hand of God,
but God was not in the Holy of Holies”! … but here, “Christ’s ministration was in the
Delirious!
SDA:
…evidence that Christ’s ministration was in the Most Holy Place in
John’s day is found in Revelation 1:13 – And in the midst of the SEVEN
CANDLESTICKS one like unto the SON OF MAN, clothed with a garment down to the
foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.”
And Revelation 2:1 –
“Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith HE
[Jesus] that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who WALKETH IN THE
MIDST of the seven golden candlesticks.”
Let us raise the question once again, WHERE according to the Old
Testament sanctuary pattern are the 7 golden candlesticks located? That’s
right, you got it! The
I should also point out that the phrase “walketh in the midst of the
seven golden candlesticks” refutes the idea that “sitting on the right hand of
the Father” must be interpreted literalistically to the point that this means
Jesus cannot be walking around. The term “sit at your right hand” can be a
metaphorical expression to represent a position of officiating authority. When
a King takes the seat, he is not physically sitting there 24/7. The expression
“seat” refers to his position of authority.“He took the seat”.
When Jesus comes crashing through the clouds, Matthew 26:64 says:“Jesus
saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye
see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds
of heaven.”
Does this mean Jesus is necessarily going to be sitting on a flying
four-legged chair? Have mercy!!
Adventist detractors simply does not understand (nor do they WANT to
understand) that the whole reason that Grace is offered to us in the first
place is BECAUSE of Christ’s ministration in the Heavenly Sanctuary! They
simply do not wish to grasp that AFTER a sacrifice comes MINISTRATION.
GE:
Confusion! ‘Sacrifice’, _is_, ‘ministration’! You simply do not wish to
grasp that!
SDA:
You think that the sacrifice takes care of it all, and refuse to
recognize that the blood shed once for all is still being applied in heaven for
our benefit. This is the only reason Grace IS available! The role of a priest
is to intercede on behalf of the people, and therefore, Hebrews 7:25 states
unequivocally, and unapologetically that Christ “EVER LIVETH TO MAKE
INTERCESSION”. But you interpret “intercession” as “doing nothing”, because
according to you, Christ “wiped away all sin, then sat down next to the
Father”. Apparently you do not grasp the present state of “intercession”.
Hebrews 8:6; 9:15; and 12:24 all make it very clear that Jesus is mediating
with his blood in the heavenly sanctuary. 12:24 says that Jesus is mediating to
the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
GE:
Hebrews 8:6 does not even mention Jesus’ “blood” or, “the heavenly
sanctuary”! It reads instead, “But now (Our High Priest on earth and
in heaven, Jesus,) hath [by his death and resurrection] obtained a
more excellent ministry by how much also He is the Mediator of a Better
Covenant [“than / as Moses was admonished of God to make”] …
a Better Covenant which was established upon better promises” … which “promises”
in the end were all and only, about and Jesus Christ Himself! NO talking about
“blood” or, “the heavenly sanctuary” clearly!
Just so, Hebrews 9:15 speaks, 14 “of Christ who, through the ETERNAL
SPIRIT, OFFERED Himself without spot to God … and who, for this cause …
[to] purge your CONSCIENCE from dead works to SERVE the living God … IS THE
MEDIATOR! … is the Mediator of (God’s) New Commitment so that by means of (His)
death-for-the-redemption of the transgressions [sins] under the
first [and old, human,] commitment, they who are called might receive
the Promise of eternal inheritance”— through and in Jesus Christ.
Again, NOTHING is mentioned of either “blood” or of “in the heavenly
sanctuary”! INSTEAD, mention is, being made of Christ’s “offering
through the Eternal SPIRIT” of God with the express _spiritual_ purpose of “cleansing
/ purging” the “CONSCIENCE” of “the called” with the view
to their “eternal [spiritual] inheritance”.
What abominable screwing up of God’s Holy Word for your satanic
doctrines, SDA!
Hebrews 12:24 … “You are come … to Jesus the Mediator of the New
Commitment and Bequeathment / Testament / Covenant / Contract”
of and by God— made unilaterally in and through Jesus Christ “so that they
who are called might receive the Promise of Eternal Inheritance [IN HIM],
you are come indeed to the Blood-of-sprinkling that speaks Better Things than
Able”— who offered NO BLOOD AT ALL! Undoubtedly “the Blood-of-sprinkling”
in this Scripture is metaphor used for spiritual “things”— “BETTER
things” than even Jesus’ own ‘blood’, because “the Blood-of-sprinkling” in this Scripture is metaphor used for
Jesus’ LIFE— “the Life is in the blood”— LIFE: through and in and “together
with Christ”, “for us”; LIFE: “you being CO-RAISED together with CHRIST”;
and LIFE: “us being CO-SEATED together in Christ Jesus in heavenly
exaltation … even WHEN, we were DEAD IN SIN BUT GOD QUICKENED US TOGETHER WITH
CHRIST— by grace ye are saved!”
Where is your ‘investigative
judgment’?! O Where, your tentative salvation? Your FALSE Gospel?!
SDA:
In light of what has been presented, we find that the argument that the
Father’s presence has always been located in the
GE:
INCREDIBLE!
You say it but you do not know what you say!
You say,
“The testimony of Revelation
chapters 1, 2, 4 and 5 … based on the simple fact that the Father’s throne was
shown as placed before the 7 golden
candlesticks and the altar which
were located in the FIRST Apartment of the heavenly sanctuary…” YET you
deny atonement was made and finished THERE, “in the FIRST Apartment of the heavenly sanctuary”!
You rather invent your own solution that God’s Throne was MOVED around to fit
YOUR schemes and and nobody else’s but your predicament! Scandalous!
‘Final atonement’ (your, SDA-terminology),
or, “cleansing” in Bible-terminology of the sanctuary according to the
Scriptures concerning its services or ministrations ALWAYS has the simple fact
that shows it was “atonement MADE” – FINISHED, “once for all”
WITH BLOOD, before the ‘7 golden
candlesticks’ and on “the altar
located in the FIRST Apartment” of the sanctuary— “according to the type”.
On this great day of judgment Scriptures specifically state that on the
day, the most holy place was entered into and ministration of atoning blood was
applied in it, SEVERAL times— on that day, and, on the next day after, BEFORE
‘atonement was finished’!
‘Final atonement’ on the two great days of atonement was not finished
with through one single entering but through SEVERAL— of the high priest into both
“the holy place” and “the most holy place” of the EARTHLY sanctuary.
But Christ made and finished, atonement for sins, cleansing of the
sanctuary and reconciliation with God, “once for all” and “for
evermore”, ONLY, in ‘the most holy place’ of then, ‘the EARTHLY sanctuary’—
the ‘Sanctuary’ of BOTH his living Self and the earth. And when He HAD
finished, had died, and was buried “THERE”, He perfected atonement, cleansing
and reconciliation “WHEN God RAISED Him from the dead the third day … and SET
Him on his own right hand in HEAVENLY places (of Rest)”, the which Divine
“atonement was made-and-finished”, IN THE VERY “CHASAH BAYITH” of Christ’s “WINTER
HAVEN” in which He was “PUT IN CONFIDENCE” and “TRUST”, ‘the most holy place’
of ‘EARTHLY sanctuary’ then: his GRAVE.
There never was another type that typified ‘final atonement’ or
‘cleansing’ or ‘reconciliation’ would occur or be finished, “elsewhere”, or that the priest would
RETURN to the holies-of-holies to perform such ministrations at another time
long after. NO Scripture says that! God redeemed
All great day of atonement Scriptures show atonement was ENDED in the
‘holy place’— NOT in the ‘most holy place’ like the SDAs claim!
SDA:
“1. Hagion [singular] = Holies – or Entire two-apartment sanctuary (9:1)”
GE:
In fact! ‘1. Hagion [singular] =
Holies – or Entire two-apartment sanctuary …” OR, “the
But, “(9:1)” more precise and
more true …
One… It was a “worldly sanctuary”, that is, one “made with
hands” (24), the reference being to the tabernacle that Moses built in the
wilderness the similitude of which earthly priests ministere in.
Also, it was the “sanctuary made with hands”; a “worldly
sanctuary” and “garden, and in
the garden, a sepulchre— wherein”— IN WHOLE and EVER, “NEVER was man yet
…”, EXCEPT, “the Great High Priest … of our confession” on this,
one, Great Day of Atoning Judgment.
For it was the “worldly sanctuary”— the IN WHOLE and ‘ENTIRE, TWO-apartment sanctuary”, in
which He was both “killed” and “laid”— “our Passover” and “Lamb of God”— ‘our’,
“Goat for the Lord”.
‘In light of this’ – light which
the Scriptures present through type AND, REALITY – ‘we find’, that “the Father’s
presence” in the “Cloud of HIS PRESENCE” [the ‘shekinah’] above and over
and around, totally “covering”, “totally FILLED”, the “Ark of the Testimony” or
“Coffin of the Law of death”, and, the ‘entire
two-apartment sanctuary’ …
… because “the Father’s presence”
was “located” in the most holy place
of the “Ark” of “Joseph’s”, “”SEPULCHRE; and “covered” and protected “that
which remained” of “our Passover”
constantly and uninterruptedly against “corruption” and forlornness and
forsakenness— “mortality”, until God “released
the pains of death” by having had Christ raised from the dead and He “revived
again” in perfect and perfected happiness, peace and rest of the FULL Fellowship-Again
of the Trinity.
“For the LORD is my Sanctuary”; “The LORD is the Tower of Strength for
His King … God of our Salvation”— “The Majesty in the heavens … the Right Hand
of the Throne … Minister of the Sanctuary … The True Tabernacle … which the
Lord pitched, and not man …” who does not “serve unto the example and shadow of
heavenly things … but who has OBTAINED a More Excellent Ministry … being the
Mediator of a Better Commitment which He LEGALISED / ENACTED / ESTABLISHED
[‘nenomothétehtai’] on Better Promises.”
2Samuel 22!!!! Jonah 2!!!! Exodus 14!!!! Psalm upon
Psalm!!!! “ALL THE SCRIPTURES … ALL THE PROPHETS … THE PSALMS … ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE LAW …
CONCERNING ME … THUS IT IS WRITTEN … THUS IT
BEHOVED THE CHRIST : THUS TO SUFFER AND THUS TO RISE— FROM THE DEAD THE THIRD DAY”!!!!
Three times, is it “written”: “ALL”— “all things in the SCRIPTURES”—
“all things concerning the CHRIST”!
What is it one reads in the Bible— in the WHOLE Bible for that matter? Is
it Jesus Christ we read about? If not, Go read again! For “ALL” is “ONE”!
“For by ONE OFFERING”— by one offering of his LIFE; of his Life in having
been “RAISED” and “brought back: FROM THE DEAD”! “For by ONE offering He hath PERFECTED”
… “for by ONE offering He hath perfected FOREVER: them that are set apart.”
Hebrews 10:14.
THEREFORE:
… the Father for no moment left Jesus or us nor departed He from the
earth. But the Father answered Jesus’ prayer to Him, not to “suffer”— not to
“let pass-over” the Cup of his SUFFERING DEATH from Him FOR TO MAKE FULL AND
FINAL ATONEMENT FOR SINS ONCE AND FOREVER.
And THEREFORE we find the argument asserting God would “leave (Jesus’)
soul in hell”, and would “suffer (his) Holy One to see corruption” and would “leave”, Him God-forsaken, “is baseless”,
being a misconception of the Protection and Sanctuary of the Father’s Eternal
and Omni-Present and Omni-Potent PRESENCE through “the Spirit of Holiness
[‘Shekinah’] by (which) Power God declared his Son, the Son of God BY HIS
RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD”, is without structure, form or order, and lacks
Content, Essence or Substance ‘in its
entirety’— because it LACKS CHRIST JESUS as it lacks “ALL” truth in its
entirety of nothingness and untruth.
SDA:
“2. Hagia [plural] = Holy Places
– or First Apartment of the sanctuary (9:2)”
GE:
This “sanctuary (to hagion)” in Hebrews 9 verse 1 – the SAME one –, is
said to be
“… a tabernacle
[‘skehneh’]
“… because
[‘gar’] [it was]
“… the first one MADE / prepared
[‘kateskeuastheh heh prohteh’]
“… IN WHICH were both the lampstand and the table and the showbread
[‘en hehi heh te luchnia kai heh trapedza kai heh prothesis tohn
artohn’]
“… which is called the holy things”
[‘hehtis legetai hagia’].
The Plural (‘hagia’) is used irrespective of which ‘holy-part’ of the
“holies”, and interchangeably for the furniture of and in the sanctuary, and
the sanctuary as such. The Plural (hagia) is thus used for also the furniture as
representing any ‘apartment’ or ‘holy’ of both ‘holies’. In other words, the
Plural (‘hagia’) is used simply as representing the sanctuary.
SDA:
“3. Hagia Hagion = Holies of
Holies – Second Apartment or
GE:
“And after the second veil …
[‘meta de to deuteron katapetasma’]
… the TABERNACLE / SANCTUARY CALLED holies of holies” [‘skehneh heh
legomeneh hagia hagiohn’]
The writer describes MOSES’ ‘tabernacle’ or ‘tent’ or ‘sanctuary’,
“made with hands”, which in WHOLE as well as in apartments or departments and
furniture, was the symbol or type of Jesus Christ God’s “Dwelling” or “Tabernacle”
or “Sanctuary” or “Holy Place” or “Most Holy Place” (“Holies-of-Holies”) WITH
MEN— God’s “Sanctuary” amongst men “NOT made with hands”.
But Jesus Christ “God with us” and God’s “Sanctuary” amongst men, even now is OUR
“Sanctuary” with God— “your life being hid with Christ in God” and He being
“Mediator” between US and God.
There is “BONE-DAY” -combining day “in between” “Jesus”, “God with us” BEFORE
his resurrection from the dead, “to Jesus …” AFTER his resurrection from the
dead— the “BONE-DAY” -combining day BEFORE “… Jesus the Mediator of God’s New
Commitment and the blood of sprinkling that speaks Better Things”. There is
this “most holy place” IN GOD’S CREATED TIME, between God in Christ and us in
Christ in God like seeds in The Seed hidden and buried in the earth John 17:21.
Even “in the HEART of the earth” of Jesus’ “anxiety unto DEATH”, BEFORE ‘Thou shalt
call delight … and shalt delight Thyself in the LORD … and shalt honour Him …
and (He) will cause Thee to ride upon the high places of the earth.”
From the “HEART of the earth” to “the HEIGHTS of the earth” and
“in-between”, “BONE-day”, day of “the valley of death”, “valley-of-bones”, “preserve”-day,
“dark-” and “hidden”-day, “still”-day. “The LORD is my TRUST” 100% IN DEATH.
“BONE-day” means “atonement finished” BEFORE; and AFTER, resurrected
LIFE! But “Day-of-Delight” and LIFE, they have gone and made “Still Saturday”
of.
O God, avenge yourself upon your foes! Avenge yourself upon them who go
even farther, and of “the day they had to KILL the passover”, make “these last
days” “The Thousand Years The First Resurrection” as if your sacrifice of your
Son was of no worth, and the atonement He had “finished”, of no avail!
… because it speaks of “better things” than the “blood of sacrifices”—
because it speaks of RESURRECTION OF LIFE through and in Jesus Christ.
SDA:
dry, barren and parched
GE:
to SDA, obviously and definitely yes,
... dry, barren and parched!
Shows you.
I won't even say, pity.
SDA:
So what about the Altar of Burnt offering in Genesis? It was the symbol
of Jesus death on the cross as the way into the Sanctuary. If this was the
primary illustration of reconciliation what did the
GE:
“Sanctuary” : “to hagion” (v1c)
= “skehneh” - “tabernacle” (v2a)
= “heh prohteh” - “the first (sanctuary built / made”) …
“… IN WHICH” – “en hehi” (v2b) …
“… (are) both – “heh te”:
(a) the lampstand, the table / altar and showbread,
and,
(b) that which is called ‘holy places’.” (v2C)
In other words, in Hebrews
“the holies” is the “sanctuary”, and
in the sanctuary or tabernacle, were
both the furniture and the departments,
the first or fore-court, the OPEN ‘holy place’ of the sanctuary or
tabernacle,
and the most holy, roofed, second department …
… which was the ONE AND WHOLE,
= “first sanctuary”, “built / made by hands”
= “the sanctuary” : “to hagion”
= “skehneh” : “tabernacle”
= “the tabernacle FULLY SET UP”
= “behind / within the veil” or “GATE” …
= as in Exodus 39 and 40 and Leviticus 16.
Not at all in 9:1-7 does the writer speak of or refer to some
‘sanctuary’ or ‘most holy place’ ‘in heaven’, EXCEPT “the Holy Spirit
signifying” (v8) in whole or part BY IT, Jesus Christ in
heaven, The
Sanctuary of both God and us.
SDA:
There are also 2 Greek expressions Paul uses to describe the veil of
the sanctuary:
1. Katapetasma = First Veil, or just “Veil” – The veil to the First
Apartment or
2. To Deuteron Katapetasma = Second Veil – The veil to the Second
Apartment or
Hebrews 9:1-3…
GE:
The “veil” of the “sanctuary” or “tabernacle” “to the Second Apartment
or Most Holy Place” is ITSELF, “called the sanctuary” and “most holy place”, in
fact is called “the second VEIL the
SANCTUARY MOST
HOLY”, as follows,
“to deúteron KATAPÉTASMA-SKEHNÉH heh legoméneh hágia hagíohn”.
Because the “veil” signified the body of Jesus in the flesh in
his blood, making
entrance, atonement and reconciliation into the Glory of the Presence of
God-On-His-Throne, God the Trinity in full fellowship of the Father and the Son
and the Holy Spirit.
Therefore the phrase may be reversed and will still mean the same, “the
SANCTUARY MOST HOLY the second VEIL”.
It was the EARTHLY sanctuary that typified Jesus Christ.
Therefore, “just “Veil””, or
“First Veil” (katapétasma) was the
“GATE” to the “sanctuary” or “tabernacle” in WHOLE, allowing access to both
“the holy (place)” (to hagion) and “holies of holies” or “most holy place” (hagia
hagiohn).
Terms and descriptions
Locations and divisions …
Exodus 26:7,9
“curtains (yeriah) to be a covering (ohel) upon the tabernacle (ohel)
double the curtain (yeriah) in the forefront of / over against (mul panim) the
tabernacle (chel)”
LXX
“skins (derreis) in front of (prosohpon) the tabernacle (skehneh)”
Exodus 26:36
“an hanging (masak) for the door (pethach) of the tent (ohel) … linen
(sheshi)
LXX “a screen () for the door () of the tabernacle () … fine linen ()”
Exodus 27:9,16
“for the gate (shahgar) of the court (chatsir) an hanging (masak)”
LXX “9…for the door (puleh) of the tabernacle (skeneh) / 16…court
(auleh) curtains (histia)
Exodus 27:16
“the hanging (masak) for the door (pethach) of the court (chatsir)”
LXX “a veil (kalluma) in / for the door (pulehi) [v9…of the tabernacle
(skehneh)]”
Leviticus 21: 23; 24:3
“”
LXX “”
… assignment …
Movements and ministrations …
From outside for to sacrifice
or and offer …
… goat of lot …
Leviticus 16:5,7,17
“of the congregation (outside) … at the door (pethach) of the
tabernacle () of the congregation … there shall be no man in the tabernacle of
the congregation () when he goeth to make atonement in the holy () until he
come out”
LXX “
“by the door (thura) of the tabernacle of witness (skehnehs tou
marturiou)”
… live goat …
Leviticus 16:21,23
“”
LXX “”
Leviticus 16:3
“come into the holy ()”
LXX “”
Between ‘holy’ and ‘most
holy’ …
Leviticus 16:2
“come not (from the court) into the holy () within the veil () before
the mercy seat upon the ark”
LXX “”
Leviticus 16:12,13
“take coals off the altar () before the LORD … put … incense … upon the
fire (coals) … bring within the veil () … before the LORD … incense may cover
mercy seat upon the testimony”
LXX “”
From ‘most holy’ into ‘holy’
Leviticus 16:17,18,20
“make atonement in holy () … go out unto the altar () … put blood on
horns () of altar … reconciling () the holy ()”
LXX “”
Conclusion
Application of terms and descriptions is interchangeable …
‘Holy’ used for ‘holy’ and ‘most holy’
‘Veil’ used for ‘door’ and “within the veil” or “second veil” in
Hebrews
‘Offer’ used for ‘sacrifice’ and ‘present’
Re: SDA,
>> “Now notice who is missing
in Revelation 4. It is Jesus. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door
[Door to
“I am the Door”!
The “veil” of the “sanctuary” or “tabernacle” “to the Second Apartment
or Most Holy Place” is ITSELF, “called the sanctuary” and “most holy place”, in
fact is called “the second VEIL the SANCTUARY MOST HOLY”, as follows,
“to deúteron KATAPÉTASMA-SKEHNÉH heh legoméneh hágia hagíohn”.
Because the “veil” signified the body of Jesus in the flesh in his
blood, making entrance, atonement and reconciliation into the Glory of the
Presence of God-On-His-Throne, God the Trinity in full fellowship of the Father
and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Therefore the phrase may be reversed and will still mean the same, “the
SANCTUARY MOST HOLY the second VEIL”.
It was the EARTHLY sanctuary that typified Jesus Christ.
Therefore, “just “Veil”, or “First Veil” (katapétasma) was the “GATE” to the
“sanctuary” or “tabernacle” in WHOLE, allowing access to both “the holy
(place)”(to hagion) and “holies of holies” or “most holy place” (hagia
hagiohn).
SDA:
You are now truly digging a hole for yourself, if there is a door in
heaven it is for the opening up of the 1st High Priestly ministry of corporate
repentance on behalf of the New Testament equivalent of the Congregation of
Israel which is the 7 churches see Leviticus 4:13.
You speak about the earthly Sanctuary representing Christ. The
Sanctuary is the way the truth and the Life as a symbol of Christ and the
Everlasting Gospel, the major problem that I see in your statement is the fact
that Jesus fulfilled the first facet or first agenda of the Sanctuary which was
individual forgiveness, it was a non-High Priestly agenda, he never
accomplished the High Priestly Ministry on earth which would have been
corporate forgiveness for Israel, as we see in Daniel 9's 70 weeks , Israel was
spewed out and never was there a Final Atonement accomplished for Israel on
earth and as we know Jesus was not a High Priest on earth, Hebrews 6:20 proves
this.
GE:
Re: >> “… he
never accomplished the High Priestly Ministry on earth”<<
Are you BLIND!? Why, is God’s Word for your ‘spewing it out’?! THIS,
says Hebrews 6:20, o you teacher of falsity …!
“We have the Hope [Jesus Christ Hebrews 10:19-22; 6:18c] as Anchor of
the soul sure and steadfast, which Hope had entered into the inside of the veil
where our Forerunner Jesus BEING HIGH PRIEST [‘archiereús genómenos’] to the
order of Milchesedec forever, entered in on our behalf.”
Jesus never “fulfilled” any “facet” or “agenda of the Sanctuary” in “non-High Priestly” capacity.
Prerequisite for Christ to ‘fulfil’
anything He ever became Man for, always had been that He should “become HIGH
Priest FOREVER”— that is, become High Priest after the order of indestructible
LIFE”. Never could a Priesthood “after the order of indestructible LIFE” be,
that would not be a HIGH-Priesthood; that would not be that ETERNAL, unique,
unrepeatable and unchangeable priesthood BECAUSE
it is Christ’s HIGH-Priesthood: FOREVER! Christ’s being HIGH Priest and
being High Priest FOREVER, are the two sides of the SAME coin. Christ, could
never be the one without the other. Christ not in all eternity could act, or
minister or ‘fulfil’ his, Priestly office as “non-High Priest” …. rotten at the
core thought!
SDA:
So what we do see is Jesus presenting the
perfect sacrifice for individual forgiveness …
GE:
No! What we do see in Hebrews 6:20 is “Jesus” ‘presenting’ his
RESURRECTION the LIVING “HOPE SET BEFORE US”! Christ “FOREVER is become High
Priest after the order of ETERNAL LIFE”! And we see Him “BEING” this “High
Priest after the order of ETERNAL LIFE”, “WHERE He had entered in” [‘hopou
eisehlthen’] on strength of, “ALL THE WHILE having been High Priest”. [‘archiereús
genómenos eis ton aióhna’]
Just as Christ “since the foundation of the world” not “often suffered,
but now ONCE IN THE END of the world had appeared [High Priest] to put away sin
by the sacrifice of Himself” Hebrews 9:26, just so, has his Priesthood both BEFORE
AND AFTER “once for all” and “forever” been the SAME “HIGH-Priesthood according
to the Law of ETERNAL, LIFE”.
Could Christ’s LIFE be ‘non-eternal’, could his Priesthood be “non-High
Priestly”— absurd, Christ-demeaning teaching, is yours, SDAs! It is as good or
as bad as denying Christ his Kingship or despising his Prophetic Office
“forever” both BEFORE AND AFTER He “now ONCE IN THE END of the world had
appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself”.
Jesus had ONE Priesthood— his ETERNAL as He, HIGH-Priesthood!
SDA:
… So what we do see is Jesus presenting the perfect sacrifice
for individual forgiveness see Leviticus 4:22-35 and when he ascended
to heaven we see him fulfilling corporate repentance High Priestly agenda for
the 7 churches according to the dictum of copy and shadow Leviticus 4:13 and we
then see him in Revelation 14:6,7,8,9 fulfilling the dictum of copy and shadow
of Leviticus 16. The application of Hagia and Hagia Hagion taking place on
earth would be incorrect.
GE:
… like speaking to the wall …
The high priest officiated in both the first apartment and most holy
place. It is not to say that because a priest ministered in the fore-court that
he must have been a ‘non-high priest’.
On the great day of atonement the priest HAD to be, HIGH priest; and ONLY
an HIGH priest could officiate in the MOST holy place of the earthly sanctuary.
Therefore besides many Divine attestations, by two earthly it is proven Jesus
Christ was High Priest of Almighty God while “He had made Sacrifice of
Himself”.
“Elijah went in the Strength of that Bread … 1Kings 19:8,9
[“My bread is to do the will of my Father.”]
“… He went unto Horeb the mount of God …
[the mount of Olives];
“… and he came hither unto a CAVE …
“… and LODGED [“stayed all that night”-‘lun’] there …”—
[… where Joseph had hewn out a sepulchre and Jesus “lodged all night”?
Matthew 28:62]
“Become / being HIGH Priest”, Christ in the ‘holy place’ or ‘people’s
court’ or “place where they crucified Him”, “made sacrifice of Himself”— “our
High Priest’s” ‘sanctuary’— “hidden place of darkness” [‘chasah’], the EARTH
and “a hill called Skull”.
There they planted a ‘tree’— that of his death, “even the death of the
cross”, where He “was fulfilling”
HIGH-Priestly and prophetic and KINGLY “sacrifice of Himself” for the “atonement
for sins … once for all”— “Himself the
Priest, Himself the Victim”, Mrs E.G. White. Himself the Prophet; Himself
the King.
It having been Sacrifice on Great Day of Atonement the “Priest-Victim”
was “High Priest”.
“In the Place where He was crucified there was a garden (a Sanctuary of
Eden); and in the garden a new sepulchre (most holy place of rest) wherein was never
man yet laid. There laid they Jesus therefore” … it being most holy sanctuary
of High Priestly reservation and seclusion. Christ in his death “entered into”
and was “laid”, in “the holies of
holies”; in the “close [‘chasah’]:
“In Thee I trust” ‘chasah’—
“Place of Trust”;
“Hidden Place”;
“reserved in dark”
[“in the shadow of thy wings I shall hide”];
“Place of peace”;
“Place to be Still”;
[‘Succot’, ‘tent of rest’, near ‘Etam’, ‘rock-grave’ resembling
Joseph’s ‘Ark-coffin’ and rock-grave.]
According to the “Law of Death” and Old Testament type, the New
Covenant Sanctuary’s Ark of the Testimony in its Most Holy Place, is Jesus’
body in the GRAVE of Joseph, in which all ‘heavenly things’ ‘in heavenly
places’ happened at Jesus’ resurrection “FROM … the DEAD”!
Now to divide and separate the two ‘apartments’ of Christ’s earthly ‘holies’
wherein He was both “sacrificed” and “hid” in ONE and the SAME “SECLUDED ACRE” [‘Nazareth’-Man
of], and transfer the “most holy” and “innermost part” of that ‘sanctuary’ to
outer space ‘in heaven’ … what indescribable anarchy does it leave!
Jesus shod all his blood but for a few sprinkling drops that
remained in his
dead body, onto the EARTH; “WHEN” in fact. “that which remained” of his blood, was
“CONSUMED” with “that which remained” of his body even to the “BONE”: and thus was
RETURNED TO THE DUST OF THE EARTH … and was not taken to heaven up anywhere
nowhere instead … but was taken to WHERE HE WAS “RAISED UP FROM THE DEAD”, and
was “EXALTED” and was “SEATED” on the Throne of God, to which Throne He
“ASCENDED”, “HAVING TRIUMPHED IN IT”— HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION.
“Immediately” as SDA said, is the key-word.
SDA:
>> GE Therefore, “just “Veil””, or “First
Veil” (katapétasma) was the “GATE” to the “sanctuary” or “tabernacle” in WHOLE,
allowing access to both “the holy (place)” (to hagion) and “holies of holies”
or “most holy place” (hagia hagiohn).<<
The above would have to take place in heaven from the context of the
Sanctuary in Hebrews 9:24. The expression Hagia Hagion is not mentioned in
Hebrews after the definitive verses of Hebrews 9:2,3.
Now figure out Heb 8:5 and how the priestly services relate to the
Heavenly Sanctuary
GE:
Re: >> “The
above [“Jesus presenting sacrifice”] would have to take place in heaven from
the context of the Sanctuary in Hebrews 9:24”<<
On the contrary, Here is what “from
the context in Hebrews 9:24” actually ‘took place’ AFTER “Jesus presenting sacrifice” …
“24 For Christ is NOT entered into / Christ NO LONGER is inside a
holiest place made with hands [“there was a garden (ploughed with hands) and in
the garden a GRAVE (hewn out with hands)”] _but_, (Christ is entered / Christ
now is) in the heavenlies of (glory) the Antitype of the true (things) HIMSELF,
NOW (in our own day) to appear in God’s Presence on our behalf.”
Jesus does not now sprinkle his blood shod 2000 years ago on some
‘literal altar’ in some ‘made with hands’ construction of a ‘sanctuary’, ‘in
heaven’, but to apply his intercessory _High_ Priestly prerogative, function and
appointment before “our Father who is in heaven”.
SDA:
And GE has just said nothing once more
Now figure out Heb 8:5 and how the priestly services relate to the
Heavenly Sanctuary
GE:
Jesus Christ, yesterday, today, and tomorrow THE SAME, _IS_ The Heavenly
Sanctuary.
What did the tabernacle of Moses signify?
Jesus Christ?
Then how come He is not The Heavenly Sanctuary?!
SDA:
Incorrect - and has nothing to do with the tupos of Heb 8.
So - since its a known fact that the Boers feel they know all things
and everything - what is Jesus doing now and provide the Bible references.
GE:
The question has been asked – or rather, the arrogation has been made
–, “The application of Hagia and Hagia
Hagion taking
place on earth would be incorrect.”
Would be ‘incorrect’ … why?!
SDA:
It doesn't follow the dictum of copy and shadow. High Priest of the
Order of M don't function on earth.
GE:
According to SDA that is, because SDA says,
“what we do see is Jesus
presenting the perfect sacrifice for individual forgiveness see Leviticus
4:22-35 and when he ascended to heaven we see him fulfilling corporate
repentance High Priestly agenda for the 7 churches according to the dictum of
copy and shadow Leviticus 4:13 and we then see him in Revelation 14:6,7,8,9
fulfilling the dictum of copy and shadow of Leviticus 16.”
That means, “sacrifice for
individual forgiveness”, is not “fulfilling
corporate repentance”?! Individuals do not make up the corporate ‘Body’?! “The 7
churches” are not “individuals”?!”
That means, “perfect sacrifice
for individual forgiveness” seen in Leviticus 4:22-35 was not made by the
“High Priest of our confession” Hebrews 3:1, but only the “fulfilling” of “corporate repentance … for the 7 churches”,
required “High Priestly agenda”?!
In fact … refer SDA … quoting him,
“… the fact that Jesus fulfilled the first facet or first agenda of the
Sanctuary which was individual forgiveness, it was a non-High Priestly agenda,
he never accomplished the High Priestly Ministry on earth which would have been
corporate forgiveness…”
So, in fact – according to E.G. White and SDA ‘scholars’ like LW and
their sheepish followers – “sacrifice for individual forgiveness” meant because
He was on earth Jesus was no priest then, and “when he ascended to heaven”, He
first was made Priest to make preliminary atonement in the ‘first apartment’,
and only in 1844 began “fulfilling corporate repentance High Priestly agenda”
in the ‘second department’ or ‘most holy place’, and ever since has been
occupied in that capacity, making ‘final atonement’.
But what any Adventist won’t
or rather CANNOT
tell, is that
1) the priest or priesthood for “individual -” as well as “corporate
forgiveness” is EXACTLY THE SAME— that of the ordinary ‘priest’; not of the
high priest, and that
2) neither was made in the most holy but in the ‘first apartment’; and
that
3) the only difference between ministration for “individual –“ and
“corporate forgiveness” was, that the blood for ‘individual’ sins was
administered to the altar on which the sacrifice was killed, while the blood
for ‘corporate’ sins was administered in the “tabernacle of the congregation”
to the “altar” “before the veil” to the most holy place.
4) That these specific sacrifices and ministrations in Leviticus 4 were
made, “_IF_ sin through IGNORANCE” incurred, WHENEVER. It happened
‘occasionally’. It was no ‘annual’ sacrifice or ministration. It definitively
was NOT the great day of atonement of the 9th and 10th days of the Seventh
Month.
Therefore, with absolutely good and irrefutable REASON, Law Worker with
his whole SDA phantasm of an IJ in some remote ‘heavenly sanctuary’s most holy
place’, is irrelevant, “incorrect”, and— to quote, “has nothing to do with the
tupos of Heb 8” or Leviticus 4 or Leviticus 16 or, for that matter with any of
the types of the Bible WHATSOEVER!
SDA:
Your understanding of 1844 is very limited and that can easily be
proven by asking you where was the blood of individual forgiveness registered?
Was it on the altar of burnt offering in the court or was it in the
GE:
See your 'question', answered in my above post.
“… the altar of burnt offering”, stood “in the court” that was in fact,
“the
The “blood of individual forgiveness”
AND “corporate forgiveness”,
were “registered”,
on the Altar of sin offering
on the cross of
in “the court of the congregation”
ON EARTH,
“the Holy of Holies”,
“The Most Holy”
“God-of-Our-Salvation”;
“HIS NAME IS THE
… RESTING-UP-AGAIN”,
Jesus Christ:
“ONCE FOR ALL”!
SDA:
"Atonement" is not exclusive to the "Day OF
Atonement". Atonement existed all throughout the year, but the Day of
Atonement was the final phase of that atonement. During the daily ministration,
"atonement" is used in Leviticus 4:20, 26, 31, and 35---this is just
one example of "atonement". These verses also say that their sins
were "forgiven them". When Christ went into the heavenly sanctuary,
He commenced the continual ministration. No, Christ did not have to die daily,
but His death one time allowed Him to now minister daily. The fact that term
"sacrifices" is plural in Hebrews 9:23 shows that Christ's one-time
death acts as many sacrifices for many people. The book of Hebrews is not a
judgment scene, but Revelation 14 is.
If someone died before the Day of Atonement arrived, yet that person
came to the door of the sanctuary throughout the year to confess his sins, that
person would be saved. The sins were blotted out from the individual, and
transferred into the sanctuary. But, on the Day of Atonement, those sins were
cleanse out of the sanctuary.
It was a day of fasting.
It was a day of prayer.
It was day of soul-searching/afflicting.
It was a day where the the people were making sure every sin was
confessed, so that when the High Priest came out to bless the people, they
would be found blameless.
This is typical of Christ stepping out of the
So your answer would be thus. No, I do not believe Romans 5:10-11 and 2
Corinthians 5:18-19 is speaking "Day OF Atonement" language. It is
speaking of ATONEMENT language, yes. The Day of Atonement carried many
attributes that took place throughout the year, but it is still not the same.
When the "hour of judgment" arrives in Revelation, there is
still hope for men to be saved, so it is impossible to say this judgment
commenced at Christ's ascension, because Revelation is an apocalyptic book of
the end times, yet there is a judgment that comes before the 7 last plagues
begin to fall. When this judgment ends, "no one can enter the temple"
(Rev 15:8). (the opposite of Heb. 4:16).
GE:
Re: >> “"Atonement"
is not exclusive to the "Day OF Atonement".”<<
Yes!
Re: >> “"Atonement
existed all throughout the year”<<
Yea.
Re: >> “but
the Day of Atonement was the final phase of that atonement”<<
No and yes; DoA was the ‘feast’ of the summer’s harvest.
The passover – while it happened in the First Month of the year – might
just as well be viewed as “the final
phase of atonement … throughout the year” because it was the feast of the
winter’s harvest.
Both ‘atoning’ feasts started in hell and culminated in the everlasting
Life of the Resurrection of Christ from the dead.
Re: >> “During
the daily ministration, "atonement" is used in Leviticus 4:20, 26,
31, and 35---this is just one example of "atonement".”<<
Correct.
Re: >> “These
verses also say that their sins were "forgiven them". When Christ
went into the heavenly sanctuary…”<<
What did it mean for Christ to ‘go’ “into the heavenly
sanctuary” and “when” did it happen?
In all types and typology / eschatology, it meant Christ resurrected
from the dead and “went into the heavenly
sanctuary” “when” and as He
resurrected from death and grave.
The forgiveness earned by Christ’s sacrifice mightily came into effect
the moment that He rose from the dead. It was then only that the Power and the
Glory of God manifested in the forgiveness of sins by the triumph of the Lamb
and clinched all benefits and privileges of Christ’s works for the saved, and,
that >> “… He commenced the continual ministration.”<<
THEN, “WHEN God RAISED Christ from the dead”, “BY,
the Glory / Presence of the Father” “DECLARING Him the
Son
of God by the
Power of Holiness”. [For what is the Spirit of God called “HOLY Spirit”? Heretofore, that He raised Christ from the
dead and declared the redeemed host, all, sons of God.
Re: >> “No,
Christ did not have to die daily, but His death one time allowed Him to now
minister daily. The fact that term "sacrifices" is plural in Hebrews
9:23 shows that Christ's one-time death acts as many sacrifices for many
people.”<<
Aye!
Re: >> “The
book of Hebrews is not a judgment scene, but Revelation 14 is.”<<
Both Scriptures are at once the scene of all God’s once for all
judgment in,
through and by Jesus Christ.
Re: >> “before
the Day of Atonement … throughout the year … sins were blotted out from the
individual, and transferred into the sanctuary. But, on the Day of Atonement,
those sins were cleanse out of the sanctuary.”<<
Historically it was just the opposite. Throughout the year sins were
‘blotted out’ or “atoned for” outside the most holy place in the “court [or sanctuary
or tabernacle] of the congregation”; but, on the day of atonement, sins for THE
ONLY TIME in the year, were taken “within the veil” into the most holy
tabernacle or sanctuary [inside the tent or tabernacle or sanctuary for the
congregation that
was on all four sides of it]!
And the “cleansing of the sanctuary” was ministered, not in the most
holy place covered under and surrounded by skins, but in the overhead open,
fenced in with linen cloth forecourt of the people by the high priest upon his
THIRD EXIT from the most holy place on the day of the atonement … not upon his
ENTRANCE into the most holy place.
Re: >> “It
was a day of fasting.”<<
It was not a day of fasting.
Re: >> “It
was a day of prayer.
It was day of soul-searching/afflicting.
It was a day where the the people were
making sure every sin was confessed, so that when the High Priest came out to
bless the people, they would be found blameless.”<<
Aye.
Re: >> “This
is typical of Christ stepping out of the Most Holy Place and coming down to
this earth to bless His people and receive them unto Himself. ”<<
NAY!
This is typical of Christ “resting-up-again” out of the depths of hell,
death and grave, “that Good Shepherd of the sheep” whom “the God of peace
brought back from the dead through the blood of the everlasting covenant”,
“like a Lamb slaughtered … STANDING on the mount”, “The RISEN”, “exalted” and
“seated at the right hand of God” having received unto Himself his sheep, their
“life being hid with Christ in God”, to “minister”, “intercede” and “mediate”
on the behalf of the sheep of his pastures and care He The Worthy, The Blessed
and Holy One of Israel.
SDA:
Oh how I remember the days when critics against Adventism were
unanimous that there was no real sanctuary in heaven, and that when Christ went
to heaven, he did not commence any ministration whatsoever, because the Bible
says "he sat".
Well, Adventists pounded these critics hard against their
delirious notions
that were in opposition to God's Sacred Book.
While Christ sat on the right hand of the Father, Stephen also saw him
"standing" on the right hand of God, and Revelation 2 and 3 shows him
"walking" amidst the 7 golden candlesticks. So the issue of
"sitting" does not mean physically sitting on a chair, but it is
speaking in terms of "office". Like a government represent has his
"seat". Does it mean he's sitting in a seat all the time? lol. We're
talking about an office of ministration here, not physically being glued to a
chair.
But the point is, after the critics were shattered and running in every
direction, they regrouped....yup....they REGROUPED (my stomach is hurting right
now due to laughter).
So they said "YES, there IS a heavenly sanctuary! And YES, Christ
is MINISTERING..... but 1. Christ commenced the Day of Atonement upon His
ascension, and 2. His ministration has nothing to do with atonement, because it
was finished at the cross".
When I began to see these arguments surface, I couldn't help but be
amazed at what lengths the critics will go to support their crumbling
foundations.
I was like "Here we have Christ DIE according to the Passover
TYPE, exactly on Nisan 14, and resurrected on Nisan 16--which took place in the
SPRING, but when Christ entered HEAVEN, HE began the Day of Atonement in the
SPRING and not the FALL according to the TYPE"
What inconsistency we have here!!!
I've got big news. Gigantic blessed news. October 22, 1844 was in the
FALL, and lines up according to the TYPE!
GE:
Maybe there were and still are freaks with all sorts of interpretations
for the GDA, most ex-Adventists no doubt.
But Reformed, that is, Protestant understanding of it and the book of
Hebrews AS OF EVERY AND ALL TYPOLOGIES IN THE BIBLE, is,
that Christ IN AND BY RESURRECTION FROM THE
DEAD,
made 'final atonement'
HIMSELF BEING THE MOST HOLY SANCTUARY
of God's immediate, 'Sanctuary-Cleansing', Presence
and today STILL in that very capacity,
acts Mediator for the believers
ON the Throne of GOD, which is
in the Full Fellowship of God the Father and the Son and the Holy
Spirit.
The writer of the Letter made great attempt to prove that Jesus while
Man among men on earth in the body of his flesh, was "High Priest of
Almighty God", "after the order of Everlasting Life" the very
"order" of his Priesthood "after the order of Melchisedec"
from ever to ever.
SDA:
The sacrifice for the individual is also the same perfect sacrifice
which enables the HP to function for the next 4 agendas of the Sanctuary which
are corporate forgiveness, The Day of Atonement, Corporate Cleansing and
Individual Cleansing. Putting away sin by the sacrifice of himself in Hebrews
9:26 comes in the context of Hebrews 9:24 from the vantage point of the
entrance of the HP into the Sanctuary. That is the proper context a perfect
sacrifice utilized by a perfect High Priest to get rid of sin. That is the
second facet of Romans 5:10 being saved by his life which = the HPM of the
Order of M
GE:
I believe exactly the same but not with or within any time-sequence(s)
after Jesus' resurrection from the dead, but at once, for all, IN "CHRIST
THE ALL IN ALL FULFILLING FULLNESS OF GOD ...WHEN GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE
DEAD" and there and then – "God raising Christ from the dead – SET Him AT the right hand of God in
heavenly" Dignity-of-OFFICE, "High Priest-for-ever" and
"MEDIATOR of the New Covenant".
NOT one day later; NOT forty days after; NOT 1814 years in
the future, but in
act-of-doing-and-speaking, God calling Christ from the dead and grave : IN HIS
FLESH glorified and incorruptible.
Came Christ not in incorruptibility of flesh from the dead: HIGH PRIEST
THE CLEANSED MOST HOLY PLACE OF GOD HIMSELF, He would Himself like any
confessors of such blasphemy, be anti-Christ.
SDA3:
Scriptures that prove "within the veil" refers to the
Exodus 26:33-35 33 And thou shalt hang up the vail under the taches,
that thou mayest bring in thither WITHIN THE VAIL the ark of the testimony: and
the vail shall divide unto you between the holy place and the most holy. 34 And
thou shalt put the mercy seat upon the ark of the testimony in the most holy
place. 35 And thou shalt set the table without the vail, and the candlestick
over against the table on the side of the tabernacle toward the south: and thou
shalt put the table on the north side.
GE:
I'm glad in this matter I agree with you, and not with the Adventists,
that "within the veil" means inside the most holy place of the
tabernacle where the ark stood.
The candlestick and the golden altar stood in the OPEN fore court of
the congregation, deeper in after the brazen altar and tables for slaughtered
offerings which stood just inside “the gate” or “entrance” or “first veil” of
linen. 'The most holy place' was behind "the second veil" which was
made of skins. In the temple the “middle-veil” was woven with precious
materials. It was this veil that was torn from top to bottom when Jesus died. The
two courts became one opened sanctuary. The most holy place could now be seen
from outside the outer gate because on the great day of judgment / atonement it
remained open. When Jesus died, the
sanctuary died.
IT SHOWS THE PASSOVER AND THE DAY OF JUDGMENT WERE BROUGHT TOGETHER
AGAINST LAW OR TIME, TO BECOME ONE IN JESUS’ DEATH, BURIAL AND RESURRECTION.
Everything coincided, converged and merged on the Passover of Yahweh.
Christ fulfilled all the Scriptures and all the types and feasts and whatever
in one, as one, at once. All ‘heanenlies’ and spiritual “witnessed that He
LIVETH … were perfected … another Priest arose after the Order of Melchisedec …
the Lord out of Judah sprang up … after the Power of Eternal Life … God
testifieth, THOU, PRIEST FOREVER … disannulling the commandment going before …
bringing in a BETTER HOPE BY THE WHICH WE DRAW NIGH UNTO GOD … THE SON
CONSECRATED FOREVER … THE WORD OF OATH … GOD IS ABLE TO SAVE TO THE UTTERMOST
BY HIM … MADE HIGHER THAN THE HEAVENS!”
The SDAs of course pretend blind to these things. But away with
bringing back over and over again that oath which is the undoing of those that
take it, “the strength of sin is the LAW”!
SDA:
That cannot be proven from the dictum on account of the fact that in
order for the HP to function there had to be a perfect sacrifice in order to
implement the agenda of the HP which as you know began in heaven.
GE:
… and you do not know began not ‘in heaven’, but was “perfected” in its
Prince of Peace and reconciliation “BROUGHT FROM THE DEAD”.
SDA:
Furthermore there is a contradictory statement regarding your belief in
Philippians 2 which states that Jesus lowered himself and
took the slave
form.
If he was HP on earth he could not represent me, notice that Hebrews
7:26 states that the HP in heaven is separate from sinners blameless, Holy and
more sublime than the heavens. The fact that he represents me in heaven is on
account of the fact that he become human and lowered himself and took the slave
form, our form prior to the HPM exaltation in Hebrews 6:20.
GE:
If Christ not on EARTH were High Priest, ‘He could not represent me’. Notice that Hebrews 7:26,27 states,
“For SUCH an HIGH, Priest becomes us [we needed to be represented by and could not do without], who, ONCE [on earth], offered
up Sacrifice [died] … when He offered up HIMSELF [from the earth, rose up] …
made higher / ascended higher / elevated higher than the heavens … seeing He [now]
ever LIVES.” That is what the fact Christ NOW “lives to make intercession”, PROVES—
proves that while He “made Sacrifice once”, He had been “HIGH Priest” indeed!
SDA:
That the HP in heaven is separate from sinners blameless, Holy and more
sublime than the heavens. The fact that he represents me in heaven is on
account of the fact that he become human and lowered himself and took the slave
form, our form prior to the HPM exaltation in Hebrews 6:20.
GE:
The fact that the High Priest is “separate from sinners blameless, Holy
and more sublime than the heavens” has nothing to do with the fact He since He
resurrected has been ‘in heaven’. It on the contrary is stated that the HIGH
Priest “WE, stood in need of” for salvation, WHILE He lived among “us …
sinners”, in character and practice, was “holy, harmless, undefiled, standing
out apart from and above … us … sinners”, and then and because of this his
sinlessness while He lived ON EARTH, “was made”— that is, “was RAISED”— “from
the dead”— “the dead”, like “us”, “sinners”, all, “were DEAD in our sins”.
Every single detail – like the whole – of this Scripture, takes an EARTHLY
‘setting’ for granted; there is no hint of a literal, vertical, local cause of
superiority, such as, “The fact that he represents me in heaven” that separated
Jesus Christ away from the EARTHLY and HIGH Priestly ‘holiness’ He officiated
in, while having made Atoning Sacrifice and Reconciling ascension on high in
his flesh as Man on earth.
SDA:
When you compare this slave form to what is stated regarding the High
Priest in Hebrews 7:26 there is a total difference and the reason is on account
of Hebrews 6:20. The HPM came later upon entrance into heaven. Hebrews 6:20
(having become) forever a HP of the order of M.
GE:
What do you mean by “dictum”, "... be proven from the dictum on account of the fact that in order for the
HP to function there had to be a ..."
Which 'fact' and what sort of
'fact' is it that needs "be proven from the dictum" while
"the dictum" itself is
"proven ... on account of the fact"?
What “agenda” have you in
mind, “the agenda of the HP which as you
know began in heaven”?
I certainly don’t know any “agenda
of the HP which began in heaven” AFTER Christ; his High Priesthood ‘began in heaven’ all eternities BEFORE
He became Man. Nor ‘knows’ the Letter to the Hebrews or the whole Bible. I told you it
is your phantasm and no ‘dictum’ or ‘fact’. Silly!
Whatever, if he was NOT HP on earth he could not represent me because
He would not / could not “make sacrifice of Himself”. What on earth or in
heaven is it that makes you think Christ could come do ANYTHING for us if He
were not High Priest of Almighty God for us – “for me” as for “us … sinners …
it behoved”? – has ALWAYS “behoved”?!
Christ was BORN, High Priest after the order of ETERNAL LIFE;
He DIED, High Priest after the order of ETERNAL LIFE;
He ROSE, High Priest after the order of ETERNAL LIFE.
Christ was even BURIED, HIGH Priest after the order of ETERNAL LIFE!
So that He ROSE, High Priest after the order of ETERNAL LIFE JUST AS He
today,
MEDIATES, High Priest after the order of ETERNAL LIFE
“as it behoved the Christ to suffer AND rise the third DAY” …
“DAY”-ON-EARTH!
What is your, “dictum” if not
Christ Jesus our HIGH Priest after the order of ETERNAL LIFE? Mrs E.G. White
and YOUR ‘traditions of MEN’!
SDA:
“… notice that Hebrews 7:26 states that the HP in heaven is separate
from sinners blameless, Holy and more sublime than the heavens. The fact that
he represents me in heaven is on account of the fact that he become human and
lowered himself and took the slave form, our form prior to the HPM exaltation
in Hebrews 6:20.
When you compare this slave form to what is stated regarding the High
Priest in Hebrews 7:26 there is a total difference and the reason is on account
of Hebrews 6:20.
GE:
The fact that Christ became human and lowered himself and took the ‘slave
form’ ONLY CONFIRMS his Priesthood after the order of Melchisedec which was
that of the High Priest Suffering Servant of God ON EARTH. What for do you think the writer made the
comparison between Jesus Christ and Melchisedec? To show how far Christ
descended; not ascended! Because He was
“SET HIGHER, FAR
ABOVE EVERY NAME NAMED”.
This “slave form”, “to what is stated regarding the High Priest in
Hebrews 7:26”, is SDA saying! How is it possible, you conceived your
misconceptions? SDA has NO conception of what he is saying, saying, “Conclusion, The HPM came later upon entrance
into heaven. Hebrews 6:20”.
SDA:
You didn't answer anything on account of the fact that the blood on the
cross was not the High Priestly ministry it was the perfect sacrifice for
implementing the HP ministry of Corporate repentance in Rev 1,2,3 which was
specifically for the 7 churches the New Testament equivalent of the
Congregation of Israel in Leviticus 4:13, just as the sin offering of the bull
was the shadow and copy of the perfect sacrifice for the High Priest being able
to carry out the agenda of corporate repentance on behalf of the Congregation
of Israel. Your statement does not match the dictum that is why your theology
is false. Again I can say that I have specific verses to back what I am
teaching, you don't have any.
GE:
SEE the contradiction – YOUR, contradiction,
“… on account of the fact that
the blood on the cross was not the High Priestly ministry it was the perfect
sacrifice for implementing the HP ministry of Corporate repentance …”
“… not the High Priestly ministry
… it was the perfect sacrifice for
implementing the HP ministry …”
REMOVE your conceited word, “for”,
and speak the truth.
Jesus’ shedding of his blood on the cross was the perfect sacrifice and
perfect implementation of his High Priestly Ministry. Were He not High Priest
while ON ERATH, Christ would not be able or entitled to sacrifice or implement
his ministry in any way.
Then you get something that makes sense and at the same time is in
agreement with the Truth of God as it is in Jesus Christ ON EARTH APPLIED IN
HIGH PRIESTLY— ‘heavenly’,
MINISTRY— THE
GOSPEL!
SDA:
Sorry you are sadly mistaken on account of the fact that Romans 5:10
states that we are reconciled by his death = sacrifice not the High Priestly
ministry.
GE:
“His death = sacrifice”,
_WAS_ his “High Priestly ministry”!
“Such an HIGH Priest behoved us”! No ‘lesser’ ‘priest’ COULD, “reconcile by his death = sacrifice”!
Please!
SDA:
After reconciliation we are then saved by his Life = Hebrews 7:24 his
HPM. You insult the Everlasting Gospel by not correctly dividing the word of
God truthfully with respect to the agendas of the Sanctuary and how Jesus
fulfills them.
Show me a verse were it states that the HP of M ministers by suffering
and becoming one with sinners on earth?
Compare your erroneous theology with Hebrews 7:26
Show me where in the dictum of Leviticus 4 does a HP suffer along with
sinners?
Conclusion 1)
What suffered was the perfect sacrifice which was not the HPM.
Conclusion 2)
After suffering that is when he became HP.
SDA3:
God spoke everything into existence. Christ became HP when the Father
declared Him as such. That declaration is recorded in Psalm 110:4. Christ was
already declared HP when He came down to earth. Therefore, Christ was HP on
earth.
GE:
Is the tabernacle a figure of / for Christ?
It is;
was Jesus a tent of skins sewn together?
He was not;
Does Hebrews use the high priest Melchisedec for a type or figure of
Christ?
It does;
Does that mean Melchisedec was in every respect a replica of
Christ?
It does not.
Nevertheless, Did Melchisedec "SERVE, after the order of eternal
life"?
Hebrews says he did! It says his was the "priesthood" or
"priestly SERVICE, after the order of Melchisedec".
Therefore Did Jesus SERVE while He was HIGH Priest after the order of
Melchisedec?
He did nothing but SERVE _BEING_, HIGH, Priest after the order of
Melchisedec.
“…after the order of Melchisedec” … "order" - that is -
"service / ministration / LAW "— of being a priest or of being a HIGH
priest.
SDA:
Show me where in the dictum of Leviticus 4 does a HP suffer along with
sinners?
GE:
You, SDA, answer your question yourself, and show us all, where in the
dictum of Leviticus 4 does a priest _not_, “suffer
along with sinners?”
And at the same time, please, explain how you say “a HP”, not ‘priest’?
Because in Leviticus 4 there is nothing found the high priest did; only what
the ‘ordinary’ “priest” did.
SDA:
In Rev 1,2,3 which was specifically for the 7 churches the New
Testament equivalent of the Congregation of Israel in Leviticus 4:13, just as
the sin offering of the bull was the shadow and copy of the perfect sacrifice
for the High Priest being able to carry out the agenda of corporate repentance
on behalf of the Congregation of Israel.
GE:
The SEQUENCE on the GDA was,
1) The high priest COMES (2)
2) The high priest comes before the gate and ACCEPTS (3,6)
3) The high priest accepts the TWO KIDS of the goats (4,5)
4) The high priest PRESENTS the two kids of goats (7-10)
5) The high priest SACRIFICES for HIMSELF (11)
6) The high priest OFFERS INCENSE first (12,13)
7) The high priest then offers / PRESENTS the BLOOD of
the bullock first …
8) The high priest SACRIFICES the GOAT of the sin offering …
9) The high priest IMMEDIATELY “brings the blood” …
10) The high priest has MADE ATONEMENT …
11) The high priest hereafter MEDIATES in the holy place
You say yourself the “sin offering of the bull” was for “individual” sacrifice for the High Priest (to be) able to carry out the agenda”
or ‘program’ for atonement to be done on the great day of atonement. If Aaron
was not the high priest, would he be authorized to make the sacrifice? NO!
But you allege Jesus could make Sacrifice of and for Himself without
having been High Priest?
Would Jesus have to make sacrifice of himself AGAIN “for corporate repentance”?!
You know He offered up Himself, “ONCE FOR ALL”! Don’t tell yourself
stories!
And you also know the Sacrifice of Christ fulfilled ALL the
types at once with
his one and only “Sacrifice of Himself”, day of atonement or passover – the
same.
You also know, if He had to offer Himself up another time, He would
have had to “REMAIN ON EARTH where there are priests who keep on making
sacrifices”, so that He would have had to every day sacrifice himself and shed
his blood, literally. Of course you know that would be sacrilege … like the
very thought of it is sacrilege and blasphemy against Christ’s “PERFECT SACRIFICE”, “ONCE … FOR …
_ALL_”.
Transferring this supposed daily sacrifice and shedding of blood of
Jesus into the heavens above won’t change the sinfulness of the idea. But that
is your idea, making Jesus to shed his blood in heaven. Which is no lesser SIN
than the idolatry of the Roman mass.
Christ “the Goat for the LORD” was neither sacrificed in heaven or ‘the
most holy place’ of the sanctuary, nor was his blood applied for to make
atonement in heaven or ‘the most holy place’ of the sanctuary ‘there’.
But Christ “the Goat for the LORD” was sacrificed on earth in ‘the
holy’ of the sanctuary, as his blood was applied for to make atonement ON
EARTH, in the ‘_holy_’ or fore-court, of the sanctuary.
You don’t see that the sequence of “the
agenda” on the great day of atonement places “atonement” made for the
congregation, outside the most holy place, inside the ‘holy’ place AND court of
the PEOPLE, with the real BLOOD of the kid. You refuse to admit “the agenda of corporate repentance on behalf
of the Congregation” was made and done, ON EARTH, _IN THE HOLY_, not in the
most holy!
Paul says in Romans 5,
“10…For if, when we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death
of his Son … 11…by whom we HAVE now RECEIVED the atonement, much more, being
[100%] reconciled = atoned = forgiven, we shall be saved by his LIFE” or
RESURRECTION.
The
Our High Priest’s “coming out” from the Most Holy Place, was his coming
forth from the GRAVE, MAKING atonement; no entering some wonderful figment of
the imagination ‘in heaven’!
That is why the tabernacle of the covenant was the enclosure within
SKINS from blood and death, the grave; and Jesus’ making ‘FINAL’ atonement was,
HIS COMING OUT OF DEATH AND THE GRAVE. “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into
the world and by sin, death passed upon all men … (and) reigned … EVEN OVER
THEM THAT HAD NOT SINNED like Adam did … who was a FIGURE OF HIM THAT WAS TO
COME …” Jesus Christ!
So it’s “your statement …”, SDA,
that “… does not match the dictum”
set by Christ the Second Adam.
SDA:
The sacrifice for the individual is also the same perfect sacrifice
which enables the HP to function for the next 4 agendas of the Sanctuary which
are corporate forgiveness, The Day of Atonement, Corporate Cleansing and
Individual Cleansing. Putting away sin by the sacrifice of himself in Hebrews
9:26 comes in the context of Hebrews 9:24 from the vantage point of the
entrance of the HP into the Sanctuary. That is the proper context a perfect
sacrifice utilized by a perfect High Priest to get rid of sin. That is the
second facet of Romans 5:10 being saved by his life which = the HPM of the
Order of M
GE:
The great flaw in SDA’s call is, that you make divided and far apart in
every sense, that which was “at the twinkling of an eye” ONE, and of one
“SUBSTANCE” in “the Dictum”: Jesus Christ in Resurrection from the dead.
And that you do, SDA, by making of the “perfect sacrifice” something
essentially different than “the next 4
agendas of the Sanctuary … [1] corporate forgiveness, [2] The Day of Atonement,
[3] Corporate Cleansing and [4] Individual Cleansing”.
Christ in his Suffering of death and Triumph of Resurrection _IS_ every
facet (or “agenda”) of “the atonement” as well as of the great DAY of the
atonement as well as of the True Tabernacle or Sanctuary of God’s immediate
Presence “WITH US” and “YOU WHERE I AM”: “Christ the Substance.
In that Christ Suffered death and “rested-up-again” and “you were
co-raised together with Him”, _He_, is
both “The Sanctuary” as such, AND, its ‘agendas’ …
‘corporate forgiveness, The Day
of Atonement, Corporate Cleansing and Individual Cleansing’ …
“… Christ … [whom God] gave, The Head … to the Church … The All in all
Fulfilling FULLNESS OF GOD … _WHEN_ God raised Him from the dead”.
“Putting away sin by the
sacrifice of Himself in Hebrews 9:26 comes in the context of Hebrews 9:24 from
the vantage point of …” Christ’s entrance into the Sanctuary of Perfect
Reconciliation, Atonement and Peace— in all: The Crucified Jesus Christ the
Risen-from-the-dead.
That is ‘the proper context’: The Perfect Sacrifice by The
Perfect High
Priest to “once for all”, “get rid of sin”.
That is the WHOLE of Romans 5:10 AND 11,
“… being saved by the DEATH of God’s Son … we joy in God … now having
RECEIVED THE ATONEMENT” through his LIFE, the RESURRECTION- LIFE of the “_HIGH_
Priest of the Order of Melchisedec”.
Jesus never acted in capacity of just ‘Priest’. Whenever it is
found written
Christ as ‘Priest’ of God, it is as sure as his Lordship and Kingship and
Eternal Son-ship, ‘Priest’ of God is written with the sense and deliberated
meaning of Christ in his HIGH, Priesthood of “Almighty God” and “after the
Order of Indestructable … Eternal … LIFE”, the Life He “(took) UP AGAIN” “by
the Glory of the Father” WHILE BEING “declared by the Spirit of Holiness: SON
OF GOD!”
… to repeat, not a day later on Sunday morning; not forty days after in
the presence of his disciple; not in AD 1844 when absolutely nothing extra the
ordinary in the line of sanctuary ‘agendas’ happened;
but ON the great day of atonement and passover IN CHRIST COINCIDING :
_WHEN_ the Word of God went out that proclaimed:
“There shall be NO MAN in the Tabernacle of the Congregation”
or ‘holy place’ of the ‘first department’
WHERE CHRIST MADE ATONEMENT
in the immediate Presence of God the LORD ALMIGHTY.
SDA:
>>GE: the priest or priesthood for “individual -” as well as
“corporate forgiveness” is EXACTLY THE SAME— that of the ordinary ‘priest’; not
of the high priest.<<
I went over this question with SDA3and the Jewish Encyclopedia
contradicted his belief just as it does yours, it does not fall in line with
the dictum of copy and shadow and establishes a new dictum which is
non-existant.
Here again you are mistaken. Individual forgiveness was a one time
event that took place in 31AD while we were yet sinners and it was not a High
Priestly ministry, it was the first facet of the Way into the Sanctuary =
reconciliation and took place prior to the Inaguration of the priesthood in
Hebrews 1:9 and Hebrews 6:20.
GE:
Leviticus 4 --- quoted by YOU --- says 'priest', every time; not, 'high
priest’.
I can go by nothing else, not even by Samie's help; sorry.
Leviticus 4 in this instance, is my 'dictum'; what is yours?
SDA:
And I have already shown you that this "within the veil"
business doesn't mean a hill of beans. It doesn't prove that the Antitypical
Day of Atonement commenced at Christ's Ascension. Just because one goes into
the
GE:
No; but Christ as He came forth OUT
of death and grave’s most holy darkness and seclusion, He proved and was the
proof the Antitypical Day of Atonement had been finished and perfected forever.
Under the OLD dispensation "one
going into the Most Holy Place", meant "they are commencing Day of Atonement ministration" because it
was in fact the ONLY service instructed for the whole year in the most holy
place meaning inside the "tent" constructed of and under
"skins". It says explicitly in Leviticus 16:2, "Aaron come NOT
AT ALL TIMES into the (most) holy place WITHIN THE VEIL BEFORE THE MERCY SEAT
which is upon the ark, that he die not."
It is interesting that the only Hebrew word used for "(most) holy
place" is 'quodesh' - the 'space'. The specific proceedings on ONLY the
great day of atonement, gave meaning to the word 'space' as the most holy
section or compartment; a sub-section of the "holy" or "most
holy" or "tent" or "tabernacle" or
"sanctuary" --- all words interchangeably used to indicate the WHOLE
'holy place' or 'tent of the covenant'. But in CONTEXT the 'place' obviously
was that part in which the ark of the testimony was, the tabernacle made of
skins, and the MOST holy place.
SDA:
As we know GE rambles in circles - has not taken any hints about the
hermeneutic of typology and is lost in evangelicalista eccentricity. The
conclusion is obvious for any genuine SDA that GE is pushing continually the
atonement was completed at the cross. GE has nothing to offer any SDA and while
remaining in complete defiance of our Great High Priest
--- therefore John 8:24.
GE:
I would have felt very pleased at your comment, but unfortunately you
obviously did not, read my ‘ramblings in circles’, otherwise you would have
noticed that I do not “push”, “the atonement was completed at the cross”, BUT
AT, IN, WITH AND THROUGH Christ’s RESURRECTION!
You, on the other hand, have not taken any hints about the hermeneutic
of typology and are lost in Seventh-day Adventistas eccentricity.
Nevertheless, thanks for the compliment; I earned it.
SDA:
Lets stop with the juvenile spats. You can't dispute any of the
evidence that I had outline to you previously to include "within the
veil" not being the MHP in Heb. 6:19.
The Heavenly MHP isn't mention once in the book if Hebrews.
Sometime the truth can be difficult to take.
GE:
It is beyond understanding how you have come to your
"evidence" and conclusion "within the veil" not being the
MHP in Heb. 6:19".
Have you read verses 18 and 20 before and after "Heb. 6:19"?
Where "Jesus _MADE_ High Priest", "is entered"?
And where he who committed deadly transgression of the Law FLED TO, to
"lay hold upon the (only) hope set before" him by the Law, to flee
into the sanctuary, in, behind the veil of it and unto the golden altar to lay
hold on the horns of it for mercy?
SDA:
so you teach that being dead in the grave is "the most holy
place" ?
clearly the most holy place is in heaven
His "coming out" of the grave is when He assumed His role as
High Priest He then acsended to heaven in that role
once He is done with His priestly duties He will then come back to the
congregation and lay His hands on the scapegoat
GE:
What a wonderful post! Praise, and thank God!
YES!!! I DO “teach that being dead in the grave is "the most holy
place"” FOR CHRIST! Because Jesus’
having been BURIED as much was part of his making atonement for sin as was his
having suffered death or having conquered death!
Leviticus 16 makes it clear!
It says the high priest – the only person allowed in the most holy
place – must not at any time BUT ON THE GREAT DAY OF ATONEMENT come into the
mhp, THAT HE DIE NOT! The mhp is the place of the DEAD!
The mhp was made of SKINS – the skins of KILLED and DEAD
SACRIFICES-FOR-SIN! The grave of Joseph was hewn out of rock by the predestination
and providence of God for to BURY the Lamb of God his Sacrifice-for-sin in.
The mhp place got NO LIGHT IN, like Jesus lay in the tomb where all
life or light has been quenched. The candlestick stood outside the mhp, and the
SMOKE of the incense from the golden altar outside it only, penetrated in
beyond the veil WHERE THE GLORY OF THE LORD only lit up the “space” … where
Christ lay buried but VICTOR, waiting to receive just recompense.
The mhp place was the “place” where only the DEAD BONE-OF-THE-LAW lay
in the closed ark of the covenant— un-broken in every bone of it and not one
bone or commandment of it severed from the other like no bone of the Passover
of Yahweh was broken or severed from another.
The mhp was “place” where ONLY BLOOD was taken in and scarcely
SPRINKLED from behind and from before on the ark signifying the GREAT END OF
THE LAW IN CHRIST.
The mhp was “place” where scarcely blood was taken in “but that which
remained” of the Christ of God, who with SHED BLOOD lay— blood He shod on the
brazen altar in the people’s court BEFORE being brought into the mhp— blood
with which the high priest AT LAST CAME OUT, and “made atonement” or
reconciliation or forgiveness of sins— in the people’s court or “place” BEFORE
the most holy “place” or realm of DEATH and DARKNESS.
SDA:
You insult the Everlasting Gospel by not correctly dividing the word of
God truthfully with respect to the agendas of the Sanctuary and how Jesus
fulfills them.
GE:
No, it's not the Everlasting Gospel I, 'insult'; it is SDA.
Because I try to make Christ an offense as much as I can in the hope
some may stumble over Him for the salvation of their souls.
SDA:
clearly the most holy place is in heaven
GE:
"in heaven" is as much on earth as it is in heaven. Plain
physics.
SDA:
His "coming out" of the grave is when He assumed His role as
High Priest He then acsended to heaven in that role once He is done with His
priestly duties He will then come back to the congregation
GE:
Yes! That is the Gospel truth! Though it is not what all SDAs believe.
He assumed His role as MEDIATING High Priest.
And it does not mean He was not High Priest BEFORE when having made
Sacrifice as well as when having been Buried as well as when having RAISED from
the dead— everything done in dignity and by authority of having been “HIGH
Priest of Almighty God after the order of ETERNAL, LIFE.”
SDA:
once He is done with His priestly duties He will then come back to the
congregation and lay His hands on the scapegoat
GE:
Not at all.
We have not yet spoken about the scapegoat ... be patient ...
SDA:
The Heavenly MHP isn't mention once in the book if Hebrews.
Sometime the truth can be difficult to take.
GE:
What than ridiculous is this?!
The most holy place of the sanctuary is being referred to in the Letter
to the Hebrews in two ways, or three, or four ways …
One… as Jesus Christ
Two… as the Moses-type of Christ, the whole sanctuary
Three… as the inner part of the tabernacle made with hands from skins
Four… as the innermost chamber of stone in the temple on earth.
Five… as represented through one or more of its furniture
And in every instance supposed in whatever manner.
Indeed the most holy place is the main motive of the Letter, but you
say it isn't mentioned once in the book if Hebrews?! Sometimes the truth can be
difficult to take ….
SDA:
Jesus making the Final Atonement after his death is incorrect.
Yawn
GE:
I didn't say that.
Shows with what disdain you read the arguments of others.
I said Jesus made the Final Atonement _FROM_ his death, FROM the grave
IN and BY and THROUGH and WITH being RAISED by the Glory of the immediate
Presence of God the Father and the Holy Spirit in PERFECT COOPERATION in
innermost FELLOWSHIP with the Son.
SDA:
What about the inauguration of the priesthood and Jesus being anointed
with the oil of gladness in Hebrews 1:9? What was the shadow and copy of that
event GE? See Leviticus 8:10 and 12.
Was Jesus inaugurated as High Priest after rising from the dead? Yes or
no?
Why was he inaugurated in Hebrews 1:9
GE:
Significant question and remark!
But read Hebrews 1:9 in its OWN context, and remove from your mind Mrs
E.G. White's statement about Jesus' self-announcement in heaven when he refused
the angel's worship until he appeared before the Father and the Father approved
his sacrifice etcetera.
Because Hebrews ITSELF reads,
"Thou madest Him a little lower than the angels [INCARNATION,
BIRTH];
Thou crownedst Him with glory and honour and set Him over the works of
thy hands [RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD]
Thou subjecting all things under his feet … LEFT NOTHING un-subjected although we do not yet perceive
it.
BUT WE DO SEE JESUS [“of
CROWNED WITH GLORY AND HONOUR [by RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD].
For it became Him … to make the Captain of their salvation
PERFECT-THROUGH-SUFFERING … IN BRINGING MANY SONS [the Church] unto glory
[“CO-RAISED TOGETHER WITH CHRIST”, “RAISED IN GLORY”]
I will DECLARE Thy Name unto my brethren; in the midst of the
Congregation I will sing praise unto Thee [Christ ascended on high after
RESURRECTION.]
Just WHERE did God crown Christ with glory?
Just THERE, WHERE "Thou madest Him a little lower than the
angels”.
NOWHERE, ‘in heaven’ or in the skies!
Jesus’ ‘inauguration’ as High Priest was [–as SDA3 has pointed out, “That declaration is recorded in Psalm 110:4.
Christ was already declared HP when He came down to earth. Therefore, Christ
was HP on earth.”–] ON EARTH in fact FROM the earth; from the GRAVE; “FROM
THE DEAD” by virtue and by power and authority of High Priesthood “after the
Law of Eternal Life”. Jesus Christ was High Priest of Almighty God from
eternity; has been from eternity to eternity; but was “PERFECTED” and
“ANOINTED” “High Priest” as here described in Hebrews 1 already as throughout
the Letter— His Resurrection being the CRUCIAL MOMENT OF TRUTH for his High
Priesthood at any time in or stage of its eternity. Faltered or failed – banish
the idea –Jesus’ High Priesthood HERE – WHERE He in the MOST HOLY ministry of
His Priesthood IN THE FORECOURT of his Resurrection MADE ATONEMENT – faltered
and failed He and his Priesthood from eternity to eternity. Banish the thought!
SDA:
It is interesting that not only Paul predicts a future judgment in
Hebrew 9:27 reconciling the visions of Daniel and the later visions of John of
this Pre-advent judgment scenes.
He lets us know that soon AFTER this vs. 28 the second coming of Christ
"without sin" unto salvation.
Pauls revelation shatters the ideal that the atonement was complete
when Christ 1st enter the heavenly sanctuary to serve as our Heavenly High
Priest. (Christ priestly ministry consisted of two phrase.)
It is indeed the High Priest who complete the "atonement" as
seen in the typical DOA and fulfilled in antypical.
GE:
Re: >> “It
is interesting that not only Paul predicts a future judgment in Hebrew 9:27
reconciling the visions of Daniel and the later visions of John of this
Pre-advent judgment scenes.”<<
It is not “interesting”; it is irrelevant arbitrariness.
But, ‘the atonement was complete
when Christ first entered’ : He, The Heavenly Sanctuary, serving, as our
Heavenly High Priest. “Resting-up-again”— “from the dead”, “HIS NAME IS THE
MOST HOLY PLACE” of the Sanctuary of God in heaven and earth “FAR ABOVE EVERY
NAME THAT IS NAMED”.
Such is Christ’s GLORY, the “glory” whereby “God raised Christ from the
dead” and “DECLARED” Him, “High Priest of Almighty God … after the Order of
Eternal Life”.
SDA:
All priests, whether High Priest or not, were types of Christ, the High
Priest.
In the Old Testament, the Lamb was sacrificed in the court, and slain
by a knife. Jesus was crucified on a Cross, which fulfilled the Type, but was
not identical to the type.
The Lamb was slain by a Priest. Jesus was slain by the Jews and Romans.
But Jesus still fulfilled the type.
A priest may have ministered for the Daily.
But Christ, our High Priest antitypically fulfilled the role the
regular priests played in the Daily, as He is the Only Priest.
In the Old Testament sanctuary, Lambs's had to be slain every day, and
also one on the Day of Atonement.
In the New Testament, Christ had to be slain once, then He could
commence the Daily, and since the slaying of the Lamb of God had already transpired,
He did not have to get slain one more time for the Day of Atonement.
Once again, GE, Types are never identical to Antitypes, yet the
Antitypes always fulfill a spiritual role the Type played.
When Christ entered the Heavenly Sanctuary in A.D. 31, He did NOT
commenced the Antitypical Day of Atonement. Otherwise, the entire First
Apartment in the Heavenly Sanctuary would have been bypassed, and proven
useless.
In the book of Revelation we are given a glimpse of the actual heavenly
temple! Here we are not dealing with a shadow or parable but with the reality
as John is given a vision of the true tabernacle which God pitched in heaven.
We are dealing with a structure so vast and glorious that human words fail to
fully capture its glory. Here we find the throne of God (Revelation 4:2) and a
door into heaven (Revelation 4:1); this suggests we are looking into the temple
in heaven. There is a reference to seven blazing lamps before the throne of God
(Revelation 4:5; Zech. 4), and Jesus the Lamb slain from the foundation of the
world (Rev. 5:6). We also see bowls of incense mingled with the prayers of the
saints (Rev. 5:8). As a rule of thumb when sanctuary images are pictured in
heaven they represent literal objects[xiv]. The symbols and the language used in
Revelation chapters four to five suggest to us that this is the
The heavenly temple is described as “ta hagia” in the book of Hebrews
which means holy places (plural); this suggests that there must be two
apartments in the heavenly sanctuary. If the
GE:
Indeed it would be odd! Never saw it coming? That you would give
thought to your thinking rather!
SDA:
If Christ had gone straight into the
GE:
You with hands of your own imagination build your
caricature of a
‘heavenly temple’; inevitably you will have to face the impossibilities of its
incumbency!
SDA:
The movement of Christ from the
A. Rev. 1:12-20 Christ among the churches EARTH
B. Rev. 4-5 inauguration of the heavenly temple
C. Rev. 8:3-5 intercession
D. Rev. 11:19 judgement MOST HOLY PLACE
C’. Rev. 15:5-8 end of intercession
B’. Rev. 19:1-10 absence of heavenly temple
A’. Rev. 21:1-22:5 God tabernacles with man NEW EARTH
GE:
Re: >> “All
priests, whether High Priest or not, were types of Christ, the High Priest.”<<
Yes, so were ALL TYPES inanimate; first and foremost, the sanctuary as
such and IN WHOLE— a figure; a metaphor; an imaginary comparison. Not the
Reality!
Re: >> “A
priest may have ministered for the Daily.
But Christ, our High Priest antitypically
fulfilled the role the regular priests played in the Daily, as He is the Only
Priest.”<<
Yes, no priest than the HIGH priest for the great day of atonement!
Re: >> “In
the Old Testament sanctuary, Lambs's had to be slain every day, and also one on
the Day of Atonement.
In the New Testament, Christ had to be
slain once, then He could commence the Daily, and since the slaying of the Lamb
of God had already transpired, He did not have to get slain one more time for
the Day of Atonement.”<<
On the day of atonement a bullock AND incense AND a he-goat were
‘sacrificed’ (on the grate and on fire) and ‘applied / offered’ BOTH in the MHP
and HP / FC. PLUS then the kid for the Great Healer Almighty Azazel was offered
“BEFORE THE LORD”. (Surprise, surprise to come for you!)
Re: >> “In
the New Testament, Christ had to be slain once, then He could commence the
Daily, and since the slaying of the Lamb of God had already transpired, He did
not have to get slain one more time for the Day of Atonement.”<<
Yes; because “since the slaying
of the Lamb of God” _was_,
“once for all” “for the Day of Atonement” in all its own
diversity as well as for all other types in all their, diversities.
Your SDA-cutting the atonement made “for the Day of Atonement” off the atonement made ON the Day of
Atonement, is PLASTIC and horribly went wrong cosmetic surgery. The slaying of
the Lamb of God had already ‘transpired’; that was and once for all FOR EVER
WILL BE the atonement made “for the Day
of Atonement”. NO ‘atonement’ is presently going on anywhere in God’s
creation.
Re: >> “Once
again, GE, Types are never identical to Antitypes, yet the Antitypes always
fulfill a spiritual role the Type played.”<<
Yes, types always typify – NEVER “fulfill”
– some spiritual aspect or “role” the
Antitype “always fulfill”.
But what you do not comprehend, SDA and all SDAs, is that CHRIST, “ONCE
FOR ALL”— FOREVER, fulfilled every possible ‘spiritual role the type’ might have ‘played’.
Re: >> “When
Christ entered the Heavenly Sanctuary in A.D. 31, He did NOT commenced the
Antitypical Day of Atonement
…”<<
No; He was crucified, died and buried and Resurrected from the dead and
so in all, FULFILLED the _type_ of the great day of atonement of the Old
Testament.
In the Scriptures there is no such thing as per se “the Antitypical Day of Atonement” But
yes, Christ fulfilled “the Antitypical
Day of Atonement” IN HIMSELF— that is, through having RESURRECTED from the
dead once and forever. That is the kernel and heart and life of the great day
of atonement type and typology -TRUTH IN WHOLE— its God-given and therefore
imperative eschatological WHOLE and WHOLENESS and ONENESS in Christ. (Lohmeyer)
Re: >> “When
Christ entered the Heavenly Sanctuary in A.D. 31, He did NOT commenced the
Antitypical Day of Atonement.
Otherwise, the entire First Apartment in
the Heavenly Sanctuary would have been bypassed, and proven useless.”<<
You just ignore the type according to the Scriptures, dear fellow. You
just wave the facts and SEQUENCE of actions and events of the great day of
atonement AS PER THE SCRIPTURES. You simply sweep it under the carpet, the bare
fact, the act and word, “atonement” and making atonement FINALLY, is recorded –
found WRITTEN man! – ONLY in the “First
Apartment in the Heavenly Sanctuary” given to Moses “on the mount” Horeb on
earth for pattern to build his tabernacle to. ONLY in the “First Apartment” which you ARROGANTLY KEEP ON DENYING, making the
type the earth’s sanctuary and its builder Moses the Law and its Architect God
the Law-Giver, all liars!
You bury SEQUENCE under the carpet like dirt, the pure and purifying
truth, the word and act “atonement” and making atonement, are recorded and
found written and done to the “CLEANSING” of the sanctuary, in the “FIRST
apartment in the sanctuary”— “in the court of the congregation” …
… AFTER the high priest had entered into the tent of the most holy
place made and covered with skins …
… AS HE CAME OUT INTO the holy place WHERE the sacrifice was
slaughtered, ‘sacrificed’, and its blood shed on the grating beneath the brazen
altar FOR TO MAKE ATONEMENT on …
… as he came out into the “the court of the congregation” …
… it’s “veil” or “gate” or “entrance” OPENED WIDE …
… while “NO MAN IN” it …
… and He trod the great winepress of the Lord ALONE …
… “the middle wall between” all the People and the high priest and
between atonement being made and the Congregation “taken away”.
INTO THE PLACE WHERE the Christ was sacrificed, the High Priest
RETURNED, and THERE, TO MAKE ATONEMENT, he with the tips of his fingers only,
sprinkled a few drops of the blood of the sacrifice and cleansed the rest of it
off his fingers onto the four corners of the altar …
… the altar BENEATH which all the blood of the sacrifice
like the leaven of
life was drenched and channelled from him, WHILE STILL LIVING, into the Dark
River of Kedron. Now only that life-blood that “CAME OUT” from the most holy
place of darkness and death-by-Law, was at last applied unto the forgiveness of
the sins and LIFE of the Elect of God.
Yea, so was the most holy apartment of the sanctuary symbol of death
and grave and the dominion of darkness, and its court of the congregation its
holy place, symbol of final restitution of all things. Compare 2Chronicles
29:16, how the cleansing of the sanctuary ended and was completed where the DESECRATION
of it started, which was in the FORECOURT OF THE PEOPLE.
O and was not the most holy place of the tabernacle of Almighty God
symbol, type and figure of Jesus’ grave?!
What of the incense burned BEFORE it that went into it “within the
veil”?! Remarkable the PROPHETIC MEANING AND APPLICATION IN THE GOSPELS of
“INCENSE” brought and applied “according to the ethical LAW of the Jews to
BURY” : “INCENSE” for the _GRAVE_ and place of forgottenness …
… where once a year according to the Law of the great day of atonement,
and ONCE AT THE END OF THE AGE according to the Law of Eternal Life the odour
of LIFE shall pervade the realm of the DEAD, and “The Dead shall be RAISED
incorruptible a sweet odour to the glory of God’s omnipotent mercies.
“Death is swallowed up in VICTORY” IS THE GOOD NEWS of the great day of
atonement and its most holy place as it, as it were, were swallowed up, and the
“veil was rent from above to below”, and ALL was made ONE, and “The Dead was
raised” The NEW TESTAMENT Testimony of prophecy and type FULFILLED: Jesus
Christ: in, his RISING from the dead.
SDA:
Again no dictum and the nonsense that is written above doesn't even
match with what is stated in Hebrews 5:5-10
That designation took place upon his ascension on account of
the fact that the
forever aspect which is the main component of Psalm 110 and Hebrews 8:1-2 was
not present on earth.
Galatians 4:4 Jesus was born of a woman and under the law
GE:
We didn’t even speak about “what is stated in Hebrews 5:5-10” or in “Galatians
4:4”.
Yes; “Jesus was born of a woman and under the law” … as well as High
Priest of Almighty God … after the Law of Eternal Life! How else?!
And how speak you of “the forever aspect which is the main component of
Psalm 110 and Hebrews 8:1-2 …” that “… was not present on earth”?! What is
your, “forever aspect” as far as it pertains the Everlasting God?!
SDA:
The point is that he lowered himself and emptied himself and there
cannot be a High Priest without the perfect sacrifice as well as the experience
of suffering in order to then be able to aid those who have the problem.
Hebrews 5:8,9,10 clearly states that he had to qualify for that office by
learning obedience once that took place (being perfected) he could represent us
as HP after laying down his life and then resurrecting. That is when he was
designated HP. Hebrews 6:20 verifies it by stating the following (having
become). Ask yourself why does it say having become? It states that he entered
as forerunner and then it states , "having become HP"
GE:
Re: >> “Hebrews
5:8,9,10 clearly states that he had to qualify for that office …”<<
To the contrary, it states there he HAD to BE qualified “for that office” …
“NO man taketh this honour unto HIMSELF, but he that is CALLED OF GOD …
so also CHRIST. He glorified NOT HIMSELF to be made an High Priest, but GOD
that said unto Him, Thou ART, my Son, today have _I_ begotten Thee. As He
saith: THOU, a PRIEST! Thou BE Priest! Thou be Priest-AFTER-/BY-THE-ORDER-/LAW
of Melchisedec!” Solely by God’s
command! Not “unto Himself”.
“So indeed Christ glorified NOT HIMSELF to be made an High Priest.”
Christ, “who in the days of his flesh when He offered up prayers and
supplications with strong crying and tears unto God his Father that was able to
save Him from death— WAS HEARD because He feared God. Though He was Son, yet
learned He obedience BY THE THINGS WHICH HE SUFFERED”! …
… none of which prayers and supplications God would have answered, and
none of which Christ would have “learned”,
HAD He not “BEEN”, HIGH Priest;
HAD He not been “MADE”, HIGH Priest;
HAD He not been “CALLED”, HIGH Priest—
already and before, because,
HIGH Priest, had BEEN, “qualification”,
and being HIGH Priest, had BEEN “office”-conditional,
for and with the view to,
“that he lowered himself and
emptied himself”;
HIGH Priest, had BEEN, “qualification”,
and being HIGH Priest, had BEEN “office”-conditional,
for and with the view to,
to “BE”, “High Priest”;
HIGH Priest, had BEEN, “qualification”,
and being HIGH Priest, had BEEN “office”-conditional,
for and with the view to,
to “BE”, “the perfect sacrifice”;
HIGH Priest, had BEEN, “qualification”,
and being HIGH Priest, had BEEN “office”-conditional,
for and with the view to,
to “EXPERIENCE” “learning”
through “suffering”.
Christ did all and everything without having one second stopped being
what He ever had been, then became, and after would be. “Jesus Christ yesterday
today and tomorrow THE SAME.”
Jesus the Man was High Priest after the order of
being “High Priest of ALMIGHTY GOD”.
Jesus Christ throughout from having been conceived until ascended, was
God absolutely, and therefore, “High Priest after the order of Priest of
Almighty God”— throughout from having been conceived until ascended.
Jesus Christ the Man, from before having been conceived and until after
He ascended, had been High Priest after the order of having throughout been “High
Priest after the order of EVERLASTING LIFE”. Therefore Christ never throughout
his “experience of suffering in order to
then be able to aid those who have the problem” of sin, was not High Priest
of Almighty God after the order of everlasting life. Not for one second not.
SDA:
The question is
CAN GE even tell us what Jesus is doing now?
GE:
The answer is, can SDA even tell us WHERE Jesus is doing now whatever He
is doing now?
SDA:
If the scapegoat is Jesus then why after paying the price for
sin with His death
and then becoming our High Priest ministering in the sanctuary would He then
come out of the sanctuary and place His hands on Himself and put sin BACK ON
Himself and then lead Himself into the wilderness banished ??
the second goats blood is not shed, thus the sin place on it by our
High Priest remains on it
without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins
GE:
The necessary blood HAD been shed before, the scapegoat was set free. Jesus
is the goat for Azazel “Healer Almighty God” because after having paid the
price for sin with His death He became our High Priest ministering on the
throne of God to where He was exalted and ascended through Resurrection
DIRECTLY AND IMMEDIATELY “from the dead” and realm of DEATH AND DARKNESS.
Coming forth out of the most holy place of the sanctuary his GRAVE THE
HIGH PRIEST OF ALMIGHTY GOD, He was blessed and sanctified and anointed at the right
hand of God in Full Fellowship of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, on behalf of
those his Elect Children, TO GO FREE into the wilderness at the creation, the
paradise restored and Eden’s garden of enjoyment, peace and rest. That is why
the second goat’s blood is not shed (Christ having already shod his blood as
the first goat sacrificed for the LORD, and) thus the sins of the redeemed
placed upon Him our High Priest, remain remitted forever, never to be recalled
but buried in the depths of the sea and carried away as far as the east is from
the west.
SDA:
thats blasphemy to claim Jesus represents satan
to apply the atributes of azazel to our Lord and Saviour is just plain evil. without
the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins
GE:
Who uses the words, “to claim Jesus
represents satan”? It is SDA who applies the attributes of Azazel to satan
then denies Azazel represents our Lord! SDA; not GE. It is not me who
blaspheme, but you, SDA.
What are ‘the attributes of Azazel? They are in the name, The Name
itself says, “Azazel”… ‘Aza’ = ‘Healer’ + “El” = Almighty God. Azazel is the
LIVE goat that is let free, to symbolize Jesus who ROSE from the dead to
forever LIVE to carry the burdens of those whom He had reconciled, interceding
for them on God’s Throne forever.
But SDA applies the attributes of Azazel Our Lord and Saviour to satan
which is just plain evil.
SDA:
wiki/Azazel
see the etymology of the word
Za za e il = strong one against God
Also under etymology see what modern scholars now say about the word
Azazel in reference to Ibn Ezra and Nachmanides who writes that Azazel
represented se i rim a class of goat like evil spirits.
GE:
Who write wikipedia? You know,
better than I, anybody; anybody saint or wikid.
"Za za e il" is not, "Azazel"
Ibn Ezra and Nachmanides are not the Scriptures.
But you will find all three words, Aza, El and Azazel in your centuries
old Bible.
Where from would "modern scholars" suddenly find what the
tested and found trustworthy Christian, deep believing and REALLY learned men
of the past ages of conflict between unbelief and faith, could not find from
the Word of God to the change of heart of their readers FOR THE BETTER?
Who wrote 'scholarly treatises' innumerable of gigantic proportion and
mighty, living and LASTING substance; whereas your referred to contributors and
authors, perhaps wrote on a single subject some petite lightweight
dollar-substituting currency to buy some doctorate certificate not worth the
paper it is printed on?
Now this, is a discovery for “_modern_ scholars” of this age of
science, “se i rim a class of goat like evil spirits”. A new species? An alien
life-form?
GE:
WHAT, DO, YOU, WANT ME AND US, TO BELIEVE,
Seventh-day
Adventist who claims to live by God’s Word but resorts to wikipedia?!
The goat shall BEAR UPON HIM all their iniquities into a land not
inhabited [since the creation Genesis 3:24], and he shall LET FREE the [live]
goat … Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of the congregation … and make an
atonement.” Leviticus 16:22-24. The goat for Azazel was NOT TO SUFFER AT ALL
like the SDAs teach but was let free into the “wilderness”.
“For the LORD [Jesus Christ the
“Fit Man”] shall comfort
SDA:
The sins are remembered no more ON THE INDIVIDUAL.
But the record from the sanctuary is not cleared until the cleansing of
the sanctuary.
The sin is blotted out from the individual, not the sanctuary upon
confession. We can go back to our vomit if we so choose.
GE:
That is exactly what YOU are doing with your returning back to your
sins as had they not been blotted out but only shelved for later reference.
SDA:
Azazel Refers to Satan.
J. Russell Howden (Church of England).—The goat for
Azazel, as it is
sometimes misleadingly translated typifies God's challenge to Satan.
Of the two goats, one was for Jehovah, signifying God's acceptance of
the sin-offering; the other was for Azazel. This is probably to be understood
as a person, being parallel with Jehovah in the preceding clause. So Azazel is
probably a synonym for Satan.—Sunday School Times, Jan. 15, 1927.
Samuel M. Zwemer (Presbyterian).—The devil (Sheitan, or Iblis) has a
proper name—Azazel. He was expelled from Eden.—Islam, a Challenge to Faith, p.
89.
E. W. Hengstenberg (Lutheran).—The manner in which the phrase "for
Azazel" is contrasted with "for Jehovah," necessarily requires
that Azazel should designate a personal existence and if so, only Satan can be
intended. If by Azazel, Satan is not meant, there is no reason for the lots
that were cast. We can then see no reason why the decision was referred to God,
why the high priest did not simply assign one goat for a sin offering, and the
other for sending away into the desert.
J. B. Rotherham (Disciples of Christ?).—"And one lot for
Azazel" (Lev.
xvi. 8).—It seems impossible to dissent from the opinion that
"Azazel," instead of being a name for the (e)scape goat, is the name
or title of an evil Being, opposed to Yahweh, to whom the live goat on the
great Day of Propitiation was sent. Admitting so much, it still remains to
inquire into the meaning
395 of this very peculiar but impressive ceremony of sending the living
goat to Azazel. Assuming that Satan is represented by Azazel—and there does not
appear anything else which biblically we can assume—it is most important to
observe that there is here no sacrifice offered to the evil spirit.—The
Emphasized Bible, vol. 3, p. 918.
William Jenks (Congregationalist).—Scapegoat. See different opinion in
Bochart. Spencer, after the oldest opinions of the Hebrews and Christian,
thinks Azazel is the name of the devil, and so Rosenmuller, whom see. The Syriac
has Azzail, the "angel (strong one) who revolted."—The Comprehensive
Commentary of the Holy Bible, p. 410.
"Abingdon Bible Commentary" (Methodist).—On the goats lots
are to be cast, one for Jehovah, and the other for Azazel. The translation
dismissal in the R.V. mg. here (cf. removal in A.S.V. mg.) is inadmissible,
being based on a false etymology. What the word meant is unknown, but it should
be retained as the proper name of a wilderness demon—Page 289.
Mention might be made also of William Milligan, James Hastings, and
William Smith, of the Presbyterian Church; Elmer Flack and H. C. Alleman, of
the Lutheran Church; Charles Beecher and F. N. Peloubet, of the Congregational
Church; George A. Barton, of the Society of Friends; John M'Clintock and James
Strong, of the Methodist Church; James M. Gray, of the Reformed Episcopal
Church; and a host of others who have expressed themselves in the same way.
Adventists, during the years, have been in full accord with the expressions of
such eminent theologians and scholars on this matter.
GE:
The Seventh-day Adventist, the man mighty in the Scriptures, relying,
trusting, hoping, depending totally helplessly calling for help from men ...
men as helpless as he and me ...
... MEN WHO DON'T KNOW MORE OR BETTER THAN A CHILD READING JUST THE
BIBLE.
More fiction of the worst kind has been written for post graduate and
post doctorate professors' theological textbooks than fiction doped 'fiction'
as such. The worst field of research of this sort is that on Azazel and the
saddest scholars in this field of religious science, the Seventh-day
Adventists.
Observing your quoted ‘scholars’ evoke the question, Are they
Unitarians? Do they deny the ‘Second
Person of the Trinity’ in that they identify Azazel with the devil because the
other goat for the gda was the goat for the LORD?
Why not could the goat sacrificed not be for YAHWEH “the
LORD” and the live
goat for the Resurrected – “MIGHTY TO HEAL GOD”, Yahweh Azazel?
Why would "Azazel, as it is translated typifying God's challenge
to Satan" be "translated misleadingly"?! Is not Jesus Christ,
"God's challenge to Satan"?!
Why? Are not ALL types and figures of the Old Testament types and
figures of Jesus Christ? As we as normal good Christians always believed?
Because they will not allow Jesus Christ the HONOUR, simply.
Who else than Jesus Christ is to be understood as a Person, being
parallel with Jehovah?! “… probably Satan”?! God forbid!
Why would it seem “… impossible
to dissent from the opinion that "Azazel," instead of being a name
for the (e)scape goat, is the name or title of an evil Being, opposed to
Yahweh, to whom the live goat on the great Day of Propitiation was sent”?
What “opinion” is that, that would
rather for NO reason, equal Azazel with an “evil
Being” with capital letter and all, than “admit” Azazel is the Title of the Anointed Healer and Saviour on
whose head all the sins of all God’s people were placed and carried away into
oblivion forever?!
Because Christ atoned for all sins including that of his people in the
future?! Why would God’s People of
before Christ have Him for their High Priest who WOULD atone for their sins but
God’s People of after Christ have no High Priest who HAD atoned for their sins?
Did not Christ make atonement “for ALL” sins, “ONCE”?!
Why would ALL figures and types and sacrifices and offerings and what
else, be of Jesus Christ-to-come, but not both the he-goats of the gda? Why
not, the live goat let free? Inconsistency and unfaithful principle of Bible
interpretation for agendas of false doctrine!
Inconsistencies and unfaithful principles as obvious in remarks such as
this “false etymology …“… What the word
meant is unknown, but it should be retained as the proper name of a wilderness
demon.”
The cocksureness to arrogate …! As stupid as arrogant ‘theology’ is it that obliges which – to
it – “is unknown”, “should be retained” as a “demon” apprehended in the “wilderness”
for evidence specimen of Bible and Gospel truth!
For certain must it be concluded about the “host of others who have expressed themselves in the same way” and
the “Adventists, (who) during the years, have been in full accord
with the expressions of such eminent theologians and scholars on this matter.”
NO difference; they all crawl and swarm like cockroaches on the same eminent
low level of inferiority of ‘theology’ and ‘scholarship’.
SDA:
Problem is that historic Judaism never viewed Azazel as a redemptive
symbol, that is the mistake of Protestanism which cannot be trusted. If they
don't understand the Sanctuary final Atonement , how could they understand the
symbolism of Azazel?
GE:
Depends on what you view as "historic
Judaism"; for me, "historic
Judaism" is the Old Testament Scriptures; no Judaism of the Christian
era.
It is the SCRIPTURES Old and New Testament that teach the Anointed is
Healer Almighty God as well as every other NAME given The Most Holy of God, our
SIN BEARER.
SDA:
People seem to forget that the sins of the redeemed that are dumped on
Satan are sins Christ ALREADY BORE. Christ already suffered the penalty for
them. Now they are disposed of on Satan
for them to be
burned up. Satan is like dump yard.
GE:
No “sins of the redeemed are
dumped on Satan”. SDAs believe that; not Christians.
EVERY 'figure' from the OT gda, is a figure of Jesus Christ.
The sins of the reconciled with God are not "dumped" on
Christ, either;
He, took our transgressions upon Himself and
by figure of "the goat for the LORD" died for it; and
by figure of "the goat for the Healer Almighty God",
He bears our burdens – burdens due to our sins –
in our stead for as long as we shall be sinners, and
that is to the end and last day.
Christ will even bear with, our sins—
sins which He had atoned for with the sacrifice of Himself once
forever, until He comes again.
That is what being our Mediator, means for the saved.
Christ being our Mediator doesn’t help the godless and lost in any way.
He does not by interceding for the children of God, atone for the sins of the
wicked and children of the devil.
Jesus does not shed or sprinkle his blood any longer;
He no longer is forgiving sins He already had forgiven once for all.
He helps us with the problems we still have with ourselves and our own
sinfulness.
He even helps God’s children with the burdens and hardships they must endure
because of the unforgiven sins of the wicked.
SDA:
Listen here. Listen UP!
It is absolutely, and I repeat, BSOLUTELY....PATHETIC!!!!
for BOTH GOATS to represent the Lord!!! Only ONE Goat represents the Lord...and
that is the one that the
Last time I checked, Jesus was NOT taken
out to the wilderness and PUSHED OVER A CLIFF!!
Jewish sources tell us THIS IS WHAT THEY
DID!!!
This goat is typical of when Satan will
be bound in the Bottomless Pit. The FIT MAN leas the goat INTO the
wilderness..... just like the angel comes down from heaven, binds Satan in a
chain, and takes him to the Bottomless Pit.
This is SOOO clear, it BLOWS MY MIND how
you can possibly not see it!
Just the NAME "Azazel" (for
scapegoat) has been PROVEN to mean "fallen angel" in ancient Jewish
literature. It's a NO-BRAINER.
CASE CLOSED.
GE:
You are either a very young man never tested in his own opinions, or a
very old man completely fossilized in his own and never tested opinions.
Or you would have refuted my views virtually every word of which are
quoted from the Scriptures, with Scriptures.
But have you presented Scripture(s)?
No ...
... not even "ancient Jewish literature" NOT so 'ancient'.
PRESENT it, old chap, PRESENT it ... I mean, present the Scriptures,
the REAL ‘ancient Jewish literature’, and from _it_, PROVE the name
"Azazel" (for scapegoat) to mean "fallen angel".
Please do? Just a cordial request?
Then also kindly explain WHY it is “pathetic”, “for BOTH GOATS to
represent the Lord”? Why, “only ONE Goat represents the Lord … the one that the
What but prejudice … and pride?
Was it ‘pathetic’ to compare, passover to have the lamb killed but the
First Sheaf RAISED and WAVED before the LORD? Was it ‘pathetic’ the feast
encompassed BOTH death AND LIFE – resurrection-life, the Resurrection-POWER of
Christ?
“O, that I may know HIM and the POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION”, the “POWER”
by which Christ was “declared to be the SON OF GOD by the Spirit of Holiness”,
the “POWER” “God worked in raising Christ from the dead … the EXCEEDING
GREATNESS of his Power which God worked / wrought / availed when He …” set
Christ free “_FROM_” THE ‘PIT’ OF DEATH AND THE DEAD AND THE GRAVE?!
The fit man led The Captive OUT; not INTO the pit.
And why, have you not read Isaiah 51 quoted here on this forum by
myself? That God would make the “wilderness,
Go read 1Corinthians 15 as speaking of Jesus Christ before speaking of
anyone else such as us, and see the ‘Scapegoat’ as Jesus Christ : IN
RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD, my man … go _read_ it, and pray you might SEE
Christ Triumph in Victory OVER THE LAST ENEMY, DEATH!
Never could just one animal sacrificed or living, shadow forth “the
GLORY of the Father … (where)by Christ was raised from the dead”, and those
reconciled IN HIM “have been co-raised together with Him” in glory of eternal
LIFE through Him, and NOT by the blood of one or all the many sacrificed
animals’ shed blood together.
That is why “THE LIVE GOAT” was needed to FURTHER fill in the picture
of the triumphant Christ it as well as the sacrificed goat, foreshadowed.
“The bullock … whose blood was brought _IN_ in the holy / sanctuary to
make atonement” Leviticus 16:27;
“But the goat … the scapegoat … PRESENTED ALIVE BEFORE THE LORD TO MAKE
ATONEMENT WITH HIM” verse 10.
That tells WHERE the live goat was sent to and describes WHERE “the
wilderness” was; it was “BEFORE THE LORD”, that is “WHERE CHRIST IS AT THE
RIGHT HAND OF GOD” and WHERETO “God exalted Him … WHEN HE RAISED CHRIST FROM
THE DEAD.”
ABSOLUTELY the SAME ‘salvific value’ as I hear the Americans speak,
meaning, both goats equally represented Christ the Saviour. Because Christ The
Crucified is not yet fully Christ the Saviour. But Christ The Crucified
RESURRECTED from the dead, is FULLY, Christ the Saviour. Saviour “from the
dead”; that is, from the grave, literally, “which God operated in Christ in the
raising Him / while having raised Him out of the dead”, ‘hehn (ho Theos)
enehrgehken en tohi Xristohi egeiras Auton ek nekrohn’.
It required BOTH the goats to symbolise as good as possible for
figures, to represent Christ the Lamb of God in suffering of death and in
Triumph of Resurrection to have made atonement and reconciliation and
cleansing.
The grave, the pit, the wilderness, is Paradise and Eden … “in Christ”—
in Christ in RESURRECTION from the dead— in Christ in the grave while being
“raised by the Glory of the Father”, “in the flesh” of his “spiritual”
RESURRECTED “body”.
It took the symbolism of each and every ‘type’ to demonstrate but dimly
what the power and the glory The Atonement, “THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS”,
embodied.
SDA:
You just don't want to give in Gerhard Ebersöhn.
You just continue with your obnoxious stubbornness, no matter what
evidence we present you.
I notice you tend to bypass all my strongest arguments, and focus on
the weaker ones, and then present your strongest ones to refute my weaker ones.
That is SHODDY handling of the data on your part.
GE:
AGAIN, SDA retorts without any Scripture.
AGAIN, he vainly thinks I “tend”, HIS, “arguments”, while
what I have
written here and many other places and times, has never been in response to SDA’s
“handling of the data”, which
NOWHERE, as much as once has been “data”
from the Scriptures.
But he calls poor GE’s “handling”, “SHODDY”; yes, just like that.
Strange, the first time I read SDA’s posts, I thought, maybe we shall
hear something from this man worthwhile to “tend”
to … Just maybe we might find some “evidence”
from him which cannot be “bypassed”
because it might be Scripture … But in vain. “Do not put your trust in
princes”. As said old Langenhoven, “Trust is deceit’s only trust”.
SDA:
It would be a very cold day when you actually listen to anyone other
than yourself.
Devil:
There is no two room sanctuary in heaven, for what?
God does not process sin in heaven, nothing defiled can enter heaven.
There is NOTHING in HEAVEN that needs to be cleansed. The cleansing of the
sanctuary is referring to the House of God the Church, the Body of Christ,
where He dwells, by His blood we who accept Him have been cleansed Heb 10:10
thus we can enter the Holiest Heb 10:19
because He consecrated us, cleansed His sanctuary, we are the
READ THE CLEANSING OF HIS
Heb 9:14
Heb 9:23
Heb 9:28
Heb 10:14
Heb 10:22 We , His House, His Temple, has been sprinkled
GE:
Devil, you are right.
But “we”, are not God's only
'temple';
He is Himself "The Most Holy". Even "His Name is The
Holy Place" Ezekiel 43:7 or "Sanctuary" or "Temple",
"not built with hands" or consisting not of men. God is his own
habitation. His Full Fellowship is within God-The-Father-and-The-Son-and-The-Holy-Spirit.
Christ "being-rested-up-again" has especially become
"The Most Holy Place" of God's Habitation. Isaiah 57:15.
Nevertheless I am not at all confident that we agree in this, knowing
full well with whom I have to do in ‘Devil’.
SDA:
The typical sanctuary services paralleled the antitypical services
going on in the Heavenly Sanctuary with Jesus officiating as our High Priest.
As happened in the type, the yearly services on the Day of Atonement were
completed when the scapegoat was led out to the wilderness by a fit man.
Likewise, all is not finished until the scapegoat, Satan, bearing the
sins of the wicked, will be cast into the lake of fire.
Indeed, the Day of Atonement as well as the other feasts are shadow of
things to come.
GE:
Exact example of SDA falsification of the Scriptures!
The typical sanctuary services did not “parallel the antitypical”;
there is no comparison between ‘parallel’ and ‘typify’.
Also, “the antitypical” had no “services”; “The Antitypical” is Christ;
or was Christ, while He was on earth, living out everything “the typical
sanctuary services” taught about Him.
And there are no “antitypical services in the Heavenly Sanctuary going
on”. All that is “going on in the Heavenly” right now since Jesus began
officiating as our High Priest, is He, doing just that, “officiating as our
High Priest … in the Heavenly” things. No “services going on in” ‘heaven’ else.
No more “services … as happened in the type” or “yearly services on the Day of
Atonement”. That all had happened and were fulfilled and finished by Jesus
Himself through having died and raised again, “once for all”.
So, yes, “As happened in the type, the yearly services on the Day of
Atonement were completed when the scapegoat was led out to the wilderness by a
fit man.” And no, “the services on the Day of Atonement” were not “completed
when the scapegoat was led out to the wilderness by a fit man.” Go read the
rest of Leviticus 16.
But yes, what else followed “on the Day of Atonement” after that “the
scapegoat was led out to the wilderness by a fit man”, demonstrated or
prophesied the same truth of Christ exalted at the right hand of God by
Resurrection from the dead. Ja, sure … the clean clothes again put on … and so
on. They likewise, all typified Christ’s
finished work of atonement until He, the Scapegoat, “Azazel” “HEALER ALMIGHTY
GOD”, having forever born AWAY the sins of the SAVED and HEALED, was raised as
it were out of “the lake of fire” and was “LET GO, FREE” into the wilderness of
God’s Edenic Delight. Indeed, the Day of
Atonement as well as the other feasts WERE, shadows of things to come which was
CHRIST THE SUBSTANCE.
SDA:
The Scapegoat was scene by the Jews as “the evil one”, and it NEVER
returned. This goat was “unhappy”.
“The goat was conducted to a mountain named Tzuk, situated at a
distance of ten Sabbath days’ journey, or about six and a half English miles,
from
The case IS CLOSED.
The Scapegoat in Hebrew thinking was an EVIL goat.
To say that the scapegoat represents after Christ resurrected is
RIDICULOUS, because that means Jesus would have to die AGAIN in the wilderness!
The goat DIED in the wilderness! For crying out LOUD!
GE:
SDA again, with NO word from the Scriptures.
It is shown SDA’s trademark, any ‘source’ but and above the Scriptures.
Who answers arguments outside the Bible? Ask him who brings in
‘arguments’ from outside the Bible … for the abuse of a forum that is supposed
to discuss ‘Biblical issues’.
SDA:
You are confusing the difference between extra biblical writings to
establish doctrine, and extra-biblical evidence confirming historical
data.
It is absolutely impossible, for example, to understand Bible prophecy
without reading history. Historical events confirm the Biblical accounts.
Scriptures do not tell you what the scapegoat represents, but
extra-biblical writings do. You are relying on extra-biblical
"thinking" to come to your conclusion that the scapegoat is Christ,
but that is not what the Bible says.
That's pretty serious. You are worshiping what you think to be Christ
which actually represents the Devil.
GE:
No fine… as long as that’s your opinion …
SDA:
Read it again
Here rub the sleep out of your eyeballs and eyesockets
Satan wasn't destroyed at
Didnt you know?
When the FINAL ATONEMENT is completed by OUR Great High Priest the type
states
LEV 16:21
"And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live
goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and
all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the
goat, and shall send [him] away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not
inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness."
COMMENT
The iniquities of all the cleansed saints ['their sins'] are placed
upon Azazel. Nothing can be clearer
GE:
"FINAL ATONEMENT”, says SDA, “is completed”, here, “LEV 16:21”.
But Leviticus 16 already in verse 10 says of the “LIVE goat” – long
before the proceedings in verse 21 where Aaron laid his hands upon its head and
where ‘ATONEMENT’ IS NOT EVEN MENTIONED –,
“… the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be
_PRESENTED_, ALIVE, BEFORE the LORD, _TO ATONE_.”
[Or,
“…shall be _PRESENTED_, ALIVE, BEFORE the LORD, an ATONEMENT.”
Already at its INTRODUCTION, or, RECEPTION,
BEFORE the “gate”
or “veil” that gave “entrance” into the “fore-court” or “holy place” even
before the first sacrifice had been made, the “live goat” was unto the
reconciliation of God and sinners, that is, unto the forgiveness of the sins of
the people of God, which was “ATONEMENT” PROPER and once for all IN CHRIST
JESUS.
Therefore what utter nonsense is this, that “FINAL ATONEMENT” was only
“completed” after all the proceedings with i.a. the sacrificed goat, instead of
at its very beginnings? The WHOLE DAY with ALL its sacrifices and rituals
typified the “Final Atonement” which is NOTHING than Jesus Christ in Person,
per se in ALL his humiliation and suffering having reached CLIMAX in the last
Passover of Yahweh the absolute equivalent of the last Great Day of Atonement
of Yahweh.
What utter nonsense is it then that "FINAL ATONEMENT … is
completed” in “LEV 16:21” JUST AFTER verse 20 stated that “the high priest had
made an END OF RECONCILING [atoning]
‘The Holy’ [the WHOLE sanctuary] AND
the tabernacle of the congregation [the fore-court] AND
its altar [sanctuary of sacrifice]!
“…HAD made an END of atonement…”
But No! say you SDAs, final atonement is only completed in “LEV 16:21”
after Aaron had put the sins upon the head of the goat and had him sent away.
Not surprising therefore that
AFTER “LEV 16:21” and the Seventh-day Adventists’ “FINAL ATONEMENT”,
“atonement” WENT ON, and the word ‘atonement’ is found another 8 times.
As far as I could see the concept of ‘atonement having been made’ could
be contained in several other words and types still another 12 times after “LEV
16:21”.
SDA:
The concept is pointing forward, that the atonement was completed. Even
you believe the atonement was "completed" at the cross. The blood is
not placed on the scapegoat until there is blood to do so, and that is AFTER
the goat the lot fell to be the Lord's goat.
The other "8 times" you are alluding to are simply referring
"back", not adding "more atonements".
lol, you must be delirious. Let's read the actual verses in plain
English instead of reading your ridiculous private translation into it
GE:
Thank you, SDA, for
admitting _you_ are “delirious”, for you could not even recognise the words
“The other "8 times" you are alluding to are simply referring
"back", not adding "more atonements", are _your_,
“ridiculous private translation”; NOT MINE!
So you caught
yourself in your OWN vanity, my mate.
It’s always like
that with haughty people in their haughty speech. It’s not long before they get
entangled in their own shabby spider’s web of own wisdom and self esteem ---
‘Laodiceanism’.
SDA:
The principle of atonement continued in the Old Testament types, but it
pointed forward to the final atonement in the antitypical age, thus we are
still correct and you are wrong.
You are playing silly mind games GE.
Adventsts have proven once and for all that the Scapegoat represents
Satan. They have smashed and demolished the evangelicals to pieces concerning
this argument, and I feel very sorry to see people like you running around like
chickens with their heads cut off trying to find reasons to justify it.
YOur arguments are worthless!!
GE:
Watch the most explicit errors imaginable …!
One… “The blood is not placed on
the scapegoat until there
is blood to do so, and that is AFTER the goat the lot
fell to be the
Lord's goat.”
Where have you ever heard such vain rubbish?! Blood, placed on the scapegoat?! You are insane! No! You are just a
SDA! You poor
Laodicean all knowing know-nothing!
Two… “The other "8
times" you are alluding to are simply referring "back", not
adding "more atonements".”
Verse 24 is yet ANOTHER sacrifice’s ‘BLOOD’ “atonement”;
Verse 27b is atonement by the “carrying forth without” of the blood
AFTER atonement and AFTER cleansing with some tiny part of it HAD, been
completed. It does not ‘refer back’; it “adds”, “more atonement” or rather,
ANOTHER, blood-less atonement.
SDA:
What the Scriptures actually say:
"(23) Then Aaron is to go into the tent of meeting and take off the linen
garments he put on before he entered the
Notice that although atonement is complete, they are simply doing a
"cleanup" job by finishing procedures they were not able to do
simultaneously. They were finishing up sacrificial/offering procedures, that
although represented transactions that transpired prior to the completion of
Atonement, were finished physically afterward.
GE:
So, “the completion of Atonement”
is not atonement
completed; it is a
“"cleanup" job by finishing
procedures” of no atoning value; God’s superfluities.
SDA:
Notice that in verse 22, "the man shall release it in the
wilderness", yet again in verse 26. Verse 26 and 27 represent procedures
that take place AFTER the judgment, when SIN and WICKEDNESS are BURNED UP.
Verse 24 is simply expressing the actual burning up of that which was already
sacrificed. It's not sacrificing another animal. You seem incapable of grasping
coalescing processes here.
GE:
Who seems “incapable of grasping
coalescing processes here”? At first you said “procedures that take place” in verses 26 and 27 were “referring … "back"”, they now
“take place AFTER the judgment” as “"cleanup" job by finishing procedures”.
But let me finish!
Verse 30 is ATONEMENT, by reason of the “day” in its wholeness of the
atonement. It does not ‘refer back’;
it “adds”, “more atonement” or rather, ANOTHER, blood-less atonement to fill up
the whole— the whole of the great day of atonement.
Verse 32 is ATONEMENT, by reason of “the priest’s OFFICE” in its
wholeness of the atonement. It does not ‘refer
back’; it “adds”, “more atonement” or rather, ANOTHER, blood-less atonement
to fill up the whole— the whole of the great day of atonement.
Verse 33a is ATONEMENT, by reason of
“the holy
garments” in its
wholeness of the atonement. It does not ‘refer
back’; it “adds”, “more atonement” or rather, ANOTHER, atonement to fill up
the whole— the whole of the great day of atonement.
SDA:
Wrong perceptions, wrong understanding:
"(28) The man who burns them must wash his clothes and bathe
himself with water; afterward he may come into the camp."
Notice that Moses is now going BACK:
"(29)“This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: On the tenth day
of the seventh month you must deny yourselves and not do any work—whether
native-born or a foreigner residing among you—(30) because on this day
atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the LORD, you will
be clean from all your sins.(31) It is a day of sabbath rest, and you must deny
yourselves; it is a lasting ordinance.(32) The priest who is anointed and ordained
to succeed his father as high priest is TO MAKE ATONEMENT. He is to put on the
sacred linen garments (33) and MAKE ATONEMENT FOR THE MOST HOLY PLACE, for the
tent of meeting and the altar, and for the priests and all the members of the
community.
GE:
Between verses 28 and 29, you insert, “Notice that Moses is now going BACK”.
Moses is not “going back”; the text follow the sequence of the events
on the ninth and tenth days of the Seventh Month. ‘Moses’ made law that
prescribed someone who came in contact with dead flesh must before sunset
cleanse himself and change clothes before he could join the congregation again.
Verse 28 therefore marks the end of the 9th, and beginning of the 10th days. “On
this day” – the tenth of the month – “ATONEMENT will be made for you, to CLEANSE
you.”
SDAs deny, it is “simply a "cleanup"
job by finishing
procedures”.
So,
Verse 33b is ATONEMENT, by reason of
“the tabernacle of the congregation” in its wholeness of the atonement.
It does not ‘refer back’, nor is it “simply a "cleanup" job by
finishing procedures”. It “adds”, “more atonement” or rather, ANOTHER,
atonement to fill up the whole of the great day of atonement.
SDA:
Nope, I already showed you above how it goes back. The atonement that
is now being made is not a reconciling atonement. Remember, atonement is not
complete until the wicked are burned up at the END of the millennium, and
Adventists are premillennial.
GE:
Then what do you preach atonement is being made since 1844 and will be
finished before the Second Coming, if “atonement is complete … at the END of
the millennium” only— a la SDAs?!
SDA:
Verse 33 is simply backing up and "encompassing" the entire
picture, not necessarily adding a next sequence.
GE:
… verse 34 is ATONEMENT, by reason of
the “everlasting statute” in its wholeness of the atonement. It does not
‘refer back’; it “adds”, “more atonement” or rather, ANOTHER, atonement to fill
up the whole of the great day of atonement.
SDA:
(34)“This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: Atonement is to be made
once a year for all the sins of the Israelites.”
It's not hard to figure out. Probation closes after the High
Priest is finished
making an atonement in the
GE:
Yes, there is nothing “to figure out” where ‘probation’
begins; verse 34
does not ‘refer back’; it “adds”,
“more ATONEMENT”, or rather, ANOTHER, atonement to fill up the whole of the
great day of atonement.
THUS, ‘the principle of atonement is continued’, in ALL the
Old Testament
types, types of blood-atonement AS
SDA:
Apart from the fact the above is a fabrication of a confused
evangelical mind -the fact is there was a three stage cleansing as defined in
Lev 16:16.
The sacred STATUTE is superimposed once more in 16:29
Since GE is without by admission of a HIGH PRIEST - then GE has no
Mediator and Lev 16:30 cannot be a reality.
GE - try another subject. This one, your efforts are also hopeless.
GE:
Thanks, SDA. You have saved me precious time and effort; yours serves
as standard example of SDA clear and systematic darkness and confusion.
SDA:
Your problem is that you do not comprehend Adventist soteriology, and
have much to learn.
GE:
My friend, your
problem is that you do not comprehend Adventist soteriology! I was an Adventist
for 21 years, and till this day nearly fifty years later, my name is on your
registers still, or ought to be there still because your church dealt so
unethically with me it is a shame. I then regarded E.G. White God's Word. I
_studied_ every ‘important’ Adventist book until and after QOD, and could tell
you page number and paragraph and line and exact "Adventist
soteriology" by heart, more than you ever could dream to. Today I tell
you, Seventh-day Adventism _has_ NO ‘soteriology’! You have no INKLING what the
doctrine of redemption and God’s grace mean. You people do not even maintain
Christian approach to Bible study, but follow the RULE OF THE DRUNKEN JEWISH
authorities on Scripture … yes, this very day PERSIST in your admiration for
the staggering intoxicated while blaspheming abusing the Word of God. Like you do here, but cannot, SEE that you
do.
The WHOLE of
Seventh-day Adventism is one tragic story of scandal and shame. JUST, because
of your unrepentant souls and communal spirit of UTTER DARING pride and
self-satisfaction. You do not know what lowliness and meekness with
longsuffering and forbearing in love means. That’s your only problem.
I told you, you
have no ‘soteriology’. There is no such thing in the Bible or in its
‘soteriology’ that is “atonement” that is not also “reconciling”; and there is
no such thing in the Bible or in its ‘soteriology’ that is “reconciling” or
‘reconciliation’ that is not also “atonement”.
You like the true
Catholic(s) you are, simply don’t believe
atonement or reconciliation or forgiveness
of sin or pure grace THAT ISN’T _B-L-O-O-D-Y_, but is “BEING SAVED BY HIS
_LIFE_” … which is the FULL and ONLY explanation of the goat-for-Azazel
‘issue’.
It is because you people
do not recognise the “LORD”,
“Yahweh” for
God and High Priest
after the Law of ETERNAL LIFE,
_BEFORE_ Christ in
his Suffering and Sacrifice of Himself,
and God and High
Priest after the Law of ETERNAL LIFE,
the “HEALER GOD
ALMIGHTY”, “AZAZEL”,
_AFTER_ Christ in
his Suffering and Sacrifice of Himself IN,
RESURRECTION FROM
THE DEAD _AND_,
EXALTATION “TO
GOD’S OWN RIGHT HAND”
where Christ now IS
SEATED, Mediator
between God’s
Throne and the Children of God, “Christ’s Own”.
Plural and Singular all the same …
SDA:
There are many forms of atonement, but after atonement for God's people
is complete, ongoing atonement in the sense of burning up the sins of God's
people continues--though probation is closed before this. No, it is you who is
Roman Catholic. Sorry.
Anyway, GE, you're dead wrong about the scapegoat (Azazel).
It is so plain and easy to understand to the common person.
There is one goat that is the Lord's, and one that is Azazel's. Only
one goat makes a sin offering.
Various scholars have interpreted "Azazel" as a desolate
place, as an idea of "removal" or as a deity. A prominent Jewish view
is to regard Azazel as a demon (e.g., 1 Enoch 9:6; 10:4, 5, 8, Apocalypse of
Abraham; for association of wild goats, goat-demons, and demons with
unhinhabited regions, compare Lev 17:7; Isa 13:21; 34:14; Luke 11:24; Rev
18:2).
In harmony with the concept that Azazel is a demon, some Christians
(including Seventh-day Adventists) see the live goat a representation of Satan,
the chief demon and arch-enemy of God.
Please note: This is NOT employing extra-Biblical informatino to
establish doctrine. The Bible simply DOES NOT SAY what the Scapegoat
REPRESENTS. However, extra-biblical sources are helpful in helping readers to
learn what culture and society understood of these figures in antiquity, and to
ignore this reveals and irresponsible handling of the Word of God.
For example, when Jesus speaks that
This, GE, you wish to ignore. And it's not my problem, it is your
problem.
Your assortments are full of bird-chirpin gibberish. Your perfidious
doctrinal stances is the breath that emanates straight out of the mouth of the
hermetic dragon, because it destroys the sound principles that after the sins
are borne by our Saviour and forgiven, these sins that have accumulated in the
sanctuary are cleansed and placed on the ultimate instigator of all Evil. The
Devil. Satan is the waste-dump. These are sins already borne, already forgiven,
already interceded for.
That's just how it is.
We are using the Bible correctly, the Final Atonement did not take
place in 31AD. Look at Hebrews 9:26, the context of the putting away of sin at
the consummation of the ages is presented in Hebrews 9:24.
Conclusion
What is written below matches the dictum. What you present does not.
The entrance into Ta Hagia
Hebrews 6:20
Rev 1,2,3=
then we see Rev 14:14
GE:
>> “What
… matches the dictum” … quoting SDA, “The entrance into Ta Hagia Hebrews 6:20”<<
The dictum, the Scripture of Hebrews 6:18-20, reads,
“We … have fled for refuge (for sanctuary)
to lay hold upon the hope set before us …”
the horns of the altar in God’s Sanctuary / Haven-of-Safety
“… which we have as an anchor of the soul …
“… which anchor enters into that …
(sanctuary and holy place of hope, refuge and safety)
“… within the veil …
“… whither the Forerunner even Jesus (the Risen) …
“… for us entered, MADE HIGH PRIEST forever …
“… after the order of Melchisedec.”
If it is true what SDA claims, that
“What … matches the dictum”, “Hebrews 6:20”,
is Jesus’ “entrance into Ta Hagia”
– or The
then “Ta Hagia” or The
must simply be
Jesus who is our Refuge and Sanctuary of
Hope, and can’t the Plural “Ta Hagia” have the meaning of only some one
section the ‘most holy place’ of our Sanctuary which is our LIVING HOPE even
Christ Mediating on the right hand of the throne of God in heaven for us.
Because if it is true what SDA claims, that
“What … matches the dictum”, “Hebrews 6:20”, is Jesus’ “entrance into
Ta Hagia”, then “Ta Hagia” – ‘
In other words, “Ta Hagia”, ‘The Most Holy Place’, must be Jesus,
HIMSELF.
Because NO Plural or the words, “TA HAGIA” are actually in “the Dictum”
of the Scripture “Hebrews 6:20”. SDA put the idea of “TA HAGIA” in “Hebrews 6:20”.
Now as long as this Greek Plural is understood for the WHOLE of the ‘heavenly’
Sanctuary in its full existence since the day that God raised Christ from the
dead Our Hope and Holy Place of Refuge, SDA does justice to “the Dictum” of the
Scripture “Hebrews 6:20”.
Remember “TA HAGIA” are no words of “the Dictum” the Scripture “Hebrews
6:20”; they are SDA’s words supposed as fitting or “matching”, “the Dictum” the
Scripture “Hebrews 6:20”.
Now the moment “TA HAGIA” is meant to mean what SDA actually wants it
to mean, some separate chamber in some physical temple building ‘in heaven’
unoccupied for 1814 years after Jesus’ death, everything of the former meaning
is DESTROYED, and the BIG LIE of the SDA IJ has replaced all its Truth.
SDA:
Satan wasn't destroyed at
Didnt you know?
GE:
Satan WAS destroyed 'at
Then go read the Gospels, especially their last chapters.
SDA:
Satan wasn't destroyed at
When the FINAL ATONEMENT is completed by OUR Great High Priest the type
states
LEV 16:21
"And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live
goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and
all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the
goat, and shall send [him] away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not
inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness."
The iniquities of all the cleansed saints ['their sins'] are placed
upon Azazel.
XSDA:
EGW said her jesus BEGAN to BLOT OUT SINS in 1844! Explain how your
jesus will locate those sins to place them on your KING SATAN to complete the
FINAL ATONEMENT?
Has LEV 16: 10 been fullfilled yes or no?
Just answer the questions and dont reply with questions!
SDA3:
Atonement had been completed on the cross. This the Bible says:
Romans 5:10-11 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to
God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by
his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus
Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
'reconciliation' and 'atonement' are from the same Greek word
'katallage'.
The effect of what Christ did on the cross is eternal, forever:
Hebrews 10:10, 14 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the
offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all... 14 For by one offering he
hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Since its effect is 'forever', no repeat is ever needed.
SDA:
You only have two goats. One which is the Lord's goat. The other which
is Azazel's goat. It's impossible for Azazel's goat to also be the Lord's goat
at the same time. Such reasoning is preposterous.
I may be Laodicean, but you are 100% apostate and
“When Aaron has FINISHED MAKING ATONEMENT FOR THE MOST HOLY PLACE, the
tent of meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the LIVE GOAT. He is to
lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the
wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and PUT THEM ON THE
GOAT'S HEAD. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of
someone appointed for the task. The goat will carry on itself all their sins to
a remote place; and the man shall release it in the wilderness."
(Leviticus 20:22)
GE admits to have
no HIGH PRIEST and is most happy for this.
Yikes!
GE:
That is what SDA
JUDGED, having no clue of either reality
or the mind and heart of a believer.
Horrible.
O Lord, your commandment
in your Word like in Ephesians
4:2,3, is very hard to obey. But please
help me o Lord, to heed your wise advice, and trust and obey you. With your
help and in the power of your resurrection I will keep "all lowliness and
meekness with longsuffering and forbearing in love" though deep in my
heart I disbelieve your commandment so much. Therefore please forgive me o God,
and WAKE UP THOSE LAODICEANS FROM THEIR FATAL SLEEP! GIVE THEM SALVE FOR THOSE
BLIND EYES! BUT ABOVE ALL AWAKE IN THEM A SPIRIT OF DISSATISFACTION WITH THEIR
DROWSY AND DELIRIOUS, DRUNKEN, AND
Re: SDA, >> “prove
that Christ entered into the
Hebrews 10:19,20 -
“(19) Having therefore, brethren, boldness
to enter into the holiest [HAGIA, or “first apartment”] by the blood of Jesus,
(20) By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the
veil [KATAPETASMA, or first veil], that is to say, his flesh.”
<<
SDA argues the KJV translates the word ‘hagia’ - ‘hagiohn’ (Plural Genitive)
in Hebrews 10:19 and 9:8, “incorrectly” with “the holiest / holiest of all”
meaning “the second apartment”. According to him, ‘hagia - hagiohn’ in these
instances mean the “holy place” or ‘first apartment’.
He gives three reasons for his assumption,
One… “… Paul says “veil” and “second veil … he (Christ) hath
consecrated for us … a new and living way _through the veil_ [KATAPETASMA, or
_first_ veil], that is to say, his flesh.”
Two… “Paul’s 9:2 definition would render it [ta hagia] the _first_
apartment.”
Three… that “the Old Tesatament name for it [ta hagia] as “holy place”
would also render it [ta hagia] the _first_ apartment.”
[Inserts of ‘ta hagia’ and emphasis, GE’s]
Let’s have a look at …
‘Reason’ One… “… Paul says “veil”
and “second veil … he (Christ) hath consecrated for us … a new and living way
_through the veil_ [KATAPETASMA, or _first_ veil], that is to say, his flesh.”
In other words, SDA is of the opinion Christ was not
sacrificed in the
sanctuary’s “most holy” suggesting that the “first veil” gave but entrance to
the “holy place” or ‘first apartment’ and not to “the holiest / holiest of all”
or “the second apartment”.
Note,
Assuming ‘atonement’ only took place in “the second
apartment” or “holiest of all”, the word and concept
‘first’ is completely that of SDA.
Note,
Identifying the “holy place” or ‘first apartment’ with the earth, SDA
and the SDAs conclude Jesus did not make atonement for sin on EARTH, but had to
be ‘in heaven’ where they assume there exists a sanctuary with two
‘apartments’, where Jesus since 1844 supposedly began to make “final atonement”
in the ‘holiest’ – Plural, ‘hagia’.
Note,
Salvation according to the SDAs is ‘conditional’. They suppose that
Jesus from that He ascended to heaven, until 1844, only made ‘conditional
atonement’, so that the ‘final atonement’ is meant to “investigate” every
person’s final choice about Christ’s ‘offered’ salvation.
Note,
The SDAs allege “conditional atonement” happened in the “first
apartment” or “holy place”, as Christ’s ‘intercessory’ or “meditory work” of
“corporate atonement”, “in heaven”.
“Final atonement”, they say, has since 1844 been going on in the
“second apartment” for which they suppose the Plural, “hagia”, or “most holy
place”. They say this present work of Christ is to JUDGE who – individually –
accepted Jesus’ offered salvation. From there, ‘the Investigative judgment’ in
‘the MOST holy’.
So we see the SDAs end, atonement with ‘individual, atonement’; while
the typical great day of atonement first, had the bullock for the individual
sins of Aaron, sacrificed.
Last time we saw …
5) The high priest SACRIFICES for HIMSELF (11);
6) The high priest OFFERS INCENSE first (12,13);
7) The high priest then offers / PRESENTS the BLOOD of
the bullock first in the most holy place (14);
8) The high priest then only SACRIFICES the GOAT of the sin offering
(15a);
9) The high priest first “brings the blood” and applies a few
drops on the ark
in the most holy place (15b,14);
10) The high priest only then had “made atonement” … he had made
atonement BEFORE he began to “CLEANSE” the sanctuary (17);
11) The high priest ‘mediates’ in the holy place or “first apartment”,
to cleanse the WHOLE, ‘sanctuary’ / ‘tabernacle’ / ‘holies’ (Plural)— or “first
apartment” (Singular) in the ‘holy place’— it is NOT stated he ‘atones’ by the
act of ‘cleansing’ (18,19) … as we have discussed this aspect before.
But the SDAs directly opposite, place the ‘atonement’ of ‘the cleansing
of the sanctuary’, in the most holy place after the high priest’s previous work
to sacrifice the goat in ‘the holy place’. Fact of order though, is, Leviticus
16 places “cleansing” after the high priest’s work of ‘sprinkling’ the blood in
‘the most holy place’, after he had COME OUT of the most holy place, and had
gone into the fore-court or ‘holy place’ again, this time, to sprinkle blood on
the altar of sacrifice.
That is why THIS act of the high priest on the great day of atonement
was the ‘cleansing’ of the sanctuary and not the atonement per se.
So, let’s have a look at …
‘Reason’ Two… “Paul’s 9:2
definition would render it [ta hagia] the _first_ apartment.
What is the “9:2 definition” of “it”, “ta
hagia”?
Here is it … seen in part, “the first tent / tabernacle /
sanctuary / holy place [‘skehneh’] was prepared in which
itself, the lamp stand as well as the table as well as the loaves of showbread,
were that which are called ‘holies’.” All and everything that made up the
sanctuary, were “holy things”.
However, seen on the whole, a “first tent / tabernacle / sanctuary
/ holy place [‘skehneh’] was prepared in which the lamp stand as well
as the table as well as the loaves of showbread is that which is called the
first holy places = tabernacle / sanctuary / tent”—
that sanctuary which was built by Moses and originally had
two ‘apartments’
and two “veils”.
That the Plural, “hagia”, ONLY AND ALWAYS should mean the Singular
most-holy-place of “the second apartment”,
is an unwarranted and unmaintainable assumption made by the SDAs to suit their
misconceptions about the Sanctuary.
As has been shown earlier, the Old Testament great day of atonement
Scriptures use any and all terms that mean the sanctuary, INDISCRIMINATELY, for
part or for the whole of it. Like right here also in the NT, in Hebrews 9
“skehneh” in verse 1, “tent” – which literally was the “tent” or ‘second
apartment’ behind or “within the veil” the “second veil” – is called “the
worldly sanctuary” in whole, Singular, “to hagion”.
The Plural “ta hagia” and the Singular “to hagion” therefore can be
used with completely the same meaning. [Like the Singular or Plural “to
sabbaton” and “ta sabbata” can mean exactly the same thing, ‘the Sabbath
Day’.]
One cannot tenaciously stick to the literal differentiation between the
Plural and the Singular for ‘the most holy’ and ‘the holy’, no matter the
context, and ignore the prescriptions given for the strict sequence of the
phases and aspects of the atonement, “made”, on atonement day. The actions—
high priestly actions
determine the
locations and their sequence of use; not bare words.
Therefore, let’s have a look at this SDA explanation of the meaning of
the Plural in “Paul’s 9:2 definition”
…
‘Reason’ Three… that “the Old Testament
name for it [ta hagia] as “holy place” would also render it [‘ta hagia’] the _first_ apartment.” SDA adds, “… or _first_ veil …” for no reason and by
no rights. [Inserts [‘ta hagia’] and emphasis _..._, GE]
The “veil” (– not the “first”, which is SDA’s word), it is said, was
“his (Jesus’) flesh”. But it is also said “He has consecrated for us a new
and LIVING way THROUGH, the veil (of) his flesh (where)by
(we) ENTER INTO, The Most Holy (Presence of God) by the blood of
Jesus.” The type in Leviticus 16 PROHIBITED anyone to come into the “court
for the congregation” which was “the first apartment” or “holy place” wherein
is signified our
representation by
Christ, IN HIMSELF AND ALONE.
Therefore we – in Christ our Sacrifice – ‘entered’ from where He had
been sacrificed as our Representative which was WITHIN THE SANCTUARY AND WITHIN
THE VEIL, INTO “within the veil” of the Sanctuary of God’s Holiness of Being,
and through and into “within the second veil”— where on the great day of atonement the blood
of all OT sacrifices representing their life, had been ‘offered’ by
‘sprinkling’.
But Christ offered his LIFE representing his blood, before the Mercy
Seat of the Living God when He rose from the dead while having obtained Name
for Himself of “The Most Holy Place”. So, where we entered through Jesus’
“flesh”- sacrifice, He, represented us, but alive, in and by and through his
LIFE HIMSELF. We stand before God in Christ’s LIFE, our “life HID with Christ
in God”.
Because Christ “wrought”; He “availed”; He “obtained”; He “overcame”;
“Christ in it …” – his death and resurrection – “… TRIUMPHED!” He triumphed
HIMSELF, IN Himself, BY Himself, THROUGH Himself, “BY the glory of the Father”,
“IN Power of the Spirit of Holiness” and “WITH” it, “BY”— even literally, “EX-Resurrection”-
“OUT OF-” sheer glory and power and triumph in “the Strength” of “the Law of
Eternal LIFE”, ‘ex-
anastáseohs’! I
should make it the title for this study—
EX
ANASTASEOHS
By
the Power of His Resurrection
The Law commanded the veil to the “first apartment” or “holy place” had
to be opened and had to stay open during the whole of the procedures within the
“first apartment” or “holy place”. No one on the great day of atonement at all
entered “through the veil” into the “first apartment” or “holy place”, also not
the high priest, because the opened veil showed the “flesh” of Jesus,
slaughtered, to open the New Way of the Better Covenant into the Most Holy
where God’s Throne is.
Outside and inside the sanctuary are made plane ground in
Christ. On the
great day of atonement there was no separation or ‘veil’ between the
congregation and the “first apartment” or “holy place”; outside and inside
became one in the high priest on the day. Therefore Christ suffered without
“the holiest of all” and his blood sanctified the forecourt of the congregation
and the congregation outside the fore-court and made of the whole where the
Lamb of God was sacrificed, the earth, God’s habitation through Jesus Christ,
even the utter
the bottom.”
Matthew 27:51.
God as it were brought the holy place of his sanctuary to the people.
Nothing on earth or in heaven could consecrate the “first apartment” or “holy
place” more holy, than Christ did, suffering and dying, death, and afterwards,
taking up his life again. Christ in making sacrifice of Himself and rising up
again from the dead, was and is the
Our sins having been made atonement for, means, there is no
wall or veil of
separation between God and man in Jesus Christ, left.
Therefore the first meaning of the inspired statement, “He has
consecrated for us … a new and LIVING way through the veil (of) his flesh
(where)by (we) enter into the Holiest by the blood of Jesus”, is that partition
between earth and ‘first apartment’ and heaven and ‘second apartment’, rent
apart and broken down through Jesus Christ crucified, sacrificed, and killed,
and buried, and raised up again. All has become The Most Holy and sacred Place
of God’s Lordship through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
That brings us back to what we have said before, that the “Veil” or
“first veil” as some say, was Jesus’ “flesh” sacrificed, and his blood shed.
But now it is indeed written,
“He has consecrated for us a New and LIVING way through the veil, that
is, his flesh, whereby we ENTER INTO the holiest of all by the BLOOD of Jesus”—
which means through and “within the second veil”. Because atoning BLOOD on the
great day of atonement was SPRINKLED in the “holiest of all” on the ark of
testimony AFTER it had been shed on the altar of sacrifice in the “first
apartment”; and after it had been sprinkled in the “holiest of all”, it was
AGAIN BROUGHT IN and sprinkled on the altar in the “holy place” or first
apartment-become-one-with-the-congregation where first it was sacrificed, WHICH
SIGNIFIED JESUS’ RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD.
Yes, Jesus’ blood was metaphorically “sprinkled” for the “CLEANSING” by
his LIFE, of the WHOLE Sanctuary of God’s Abiding Presence with man through
Jesus Christ The Risen.
That is New Testament theology; Christian theology; Reformed Protestant
FAITH.
Conclusion:
Hebrews 6:19 “that [Hope, an Anchor, the Forerunner] within the veil
even Jesus”;
10:20 “a New and
9:3 “a Tabernacle, the first … and the Sanctuary after / within /
behind the second veil …”
… are synonymous, and paradigms of the only Reality, Jesus Christ the
Suffering, in his Death, and in his Burial, and in his Resurrection— “The
Which obviously cannot but be the truth of all salvation, that
JESUS is “The
Holiest of all” of the
peace and full and
final atonement for sin once and forever.
Therefore the second meaning of the inspired statement, “He has
consecrated for us … a New and LIVING way through the veil (of) his flesh”, is
that “by the blood of Jesus” and “the Power of his Resurrection”, God has made
for us immediate and unconditional Entrance “into the Holiest”; and has made
the partition between earth and ‘first apartment’, and heaven and ‘second
apartment’, altogether to disappear.
By reason of which I conclude the three reasons SDA mentions to make
all kinds of artificial distinctions in the heavenly Sanctuary because of the
Plural and the Singular, ‘the holy’ and ‘the holiest’, is worth nothing and on
the contrary causes harm only to “the Hope we have before us” who as our
“Anchor of the soul” has entered into That within the veil, which is the
unhindered
presence of “God
with us”.
SDA:
You are making a lot of assumptions
about me.
GE:
I have made no assumptions about you,
SDA; don’t flatter yourself.
SDA:
You simply do not understand my
perspective of Adventism.
GE:
Why should I? It is enough I understand
the Adventist perspective.
SDA:
What the denomination does today, or how
Adventists behave today has no bearing whatsoever on whether the historic
position of our Adventist pioneers is correct or not. You are disqualifying
historic Adventist theology based on the apostasy that is pervading today, but
that is not how to look at it.
GE:
I have no interest therein to learn
about “the apostasy that is pervading
today”; “the last error shall be worse than the first” Matthew
27:64, the first legalists themselves correctly prophesied.
SDA:
You must take the theology on its own
merits. Sister White was a Godly woman, despite how Adventists act today.
Today, she would utter a rebuke for their unGodly behaviors. But just because
of their unGodliness today does not make her any less of a prophet back then.
GE:
What has all
this to do with ‘tak(ing) the theology on its own
merits’? What
‘theology’ are you talking of? I haven’t noticed any from you, yet.
SDA:
Had Azazel represented Christ, GOD WOULD
HAVE SHOWED HER! PERIOD!
GE:
So that’s your ‘theology’ …
SDA:
The Lord SHOWED HER IN VISION what this
goat represented. Scriptures are SILENT on this matter, and there is NO verse
that tells you what the goat represents.
GE:
… and you talk of the Pentecostals
claiming the gift of tongues! What’s the difference between your and her, and
their, gibberish? … shows you what I mean and
assume regarding you and the SDAs and your ‘theology’ and ‘visions’ … so that you created opportunity for
yourself to “compare Jewish thought” and find “outside support” to without a
semblance of a smile, convert “the goat” into “this beast” of “an evil omen”? That
I consume precious time on you or your ‘theology’! Ah well; what shall I do?
Let the beast have it his way? No; I’ll answer, were it for myself only. May
the Name of Jesus be kept clean of libel …
SDA:
When I compare Jewish thought, such as
in the book of Enoch, that this is how they viewed this goat, it lends outside
support that this beast was an evil omen--and it makes perfect theological
sense because Christ died once, not twice. The fact that both goats were brought
in AT THE SAME TIME, and that the lot for ONE goat fell to the Lord, and the
lot for the OTHER fell to Azazel.
GE:
Yes, because Christ died
once, not twice, it does make perfect theological sense, the “…
fact that both goats were brought in AT THE SAME TIME, and that the lot for ONE
goat fell to the Lord, and the lot for the OTHER fell to Azazel”, because the one goat for the fact
Christ died; the other for the fact He rose again … it makes perfect sense, ja.
The high priest accepted the two kids of the goats (4,5), OUTSIDE the
opened entrance to the fore-court, together, and presented them – by casting
the lot over them – together and THERE— “before the LORD, _at / before_ the
door of the tabernacle of the congregation.” The high priest then only, “shall
bring the [one] goat [ALONE] on which the LORD’S lot fell [in], and offer /
sacrifice / kill him [ALONE] for a sin offering (7-10).”
SDA:
If both goats represent the Lord, then
the lot would have fell to be the Lord's for BOTH goats.
GE:
And that’s exactly what happened and what is stated in the Text. It is
only when you corrupt the plainest possible meanings of the words written, that
unexplainable discrepancies start to arise. It is only when you import the
totally foreign meanings of devils for the Name Azazel and the words it is made
up from, “Aza”, “Healer / Saviour”, and “El”, “Mighty God”.
Just why couldn’t the lot fall so that both goats might typify the
LORD, one, for “Yahweh” the Father-Creator; and the other for “Aza-z-El” the
Son-Saviour? One for Christ in his suffering of dying death – the goat killed
for Yahweh; and one for Christ the Victor “Ex-Resurrection from the dead” and
grave, “having entered into His Own Rest as God in his own”? Hebrews 4:10. “And
you having been co-raised together with Him” and HEALED from the death-sickness
wherein “you were dead in your sins”?
JUST BECAUSE “Jewish thought … viewed this goat … this beast … an evil
omen”?!
You have it your way for yourself; I shall abide with and find my rest
in the inexplicable and unfathomable depths and heights and widths of the
Mystery of Godliness in Christ Jesus.
Why do you find it so strange and impossible “both goats represent the
Lord”?! Did not ALL goats and sheep and bullocks and pigeons and whatever
SACRIFICED, “represent the Lord”? Likewise did not ALL “LIVE” offerings like
the First Sheaf and Shewbread and “live goat”, “represent the Lord”?
For you SDAs no, because you expel Christ’s Resurrection from the
Atonement Jesus Christ had made final, full and once for all, and had confirmed
and perfected and ACCEPTED in “the exceeding greatness of God’s power when He
raised Christ from the dead”, “by the Glory of the Father”— “the POWER of His
RESURRECTION”!
“O, that I may know Him and the Power of his Resurrection” or I would
not know anything of the power with which Christ of his own had laid down his
life or of the Omnipotence of God’s Grace and Love by which He “gave his only
begotten Son” a Sacrifice for our, sins, and an Atonement made once for all by
the sacrifice of Himself.
SDA:
Concerning Lucifer:
"They that see thee shall narrowly
look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth
to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the WORLD AS A WILDERNESS, and
destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? All
the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own
house. But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the
RAIMENT OF THOSE THAT ARE SLAIN, thrust through with a sword, that go down to
the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. Thou shalt NOT BE
JOINED WITH THEM IN BURIAL, because thou hast DESTROYED THE LAND, and slain thy
people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned." (Isaiah 14:16-20)
Can you not see a parallel here with the
scapegoat in the wilderness?? Can you NOT SEE IT??
GE:
I’m afraid, no; I can’t.
Are you going to judge me because I can’t?
No?
Then why would you think God would judge me because I can’t?
Therefore, worthless, is your absolutely irrelevant reference
“concerning Lucifer” with regard to the atonement made on the gda.
SDA:
When Jesus went into the wilderness for
40 days, 1. He did not bear any iniquities at that time, and 2. He came back!!
GE:
“He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows … the
chastisement of our peace was upon him …”, “at that time”.
SDA:
The SCAPEGOAT did NOT come BACK! Satan
will NOT come BACK! It does NOT take a Ph.D. to figure this out!!
GE:
The scapegoat did not come back, yes;
who said he came back?
But Jesus said, “I go to prepare a place
for you (that no man now inhabits), and when I have gone and prepared (this)
place for you, I will come again; and receive you unto Myself that where I am,
ye also may be. And whither I go, YE KNOW, and The WAY, ye know … I am The Way,
The Truth (Reality, Substance), and
The Life; no man cometh unto the FATHER, but by Me.”
So then – and there – the Father and the
Son and the little children shall together inhabit the Place of that Land reconciled
and in perfect, Paradisiacal and Edenic Peace and At-One-ment, “God-with-us”,
and us with God “where I am”.
SDA:
Isaiah 24:
17 Fear, and the pit, and the
snare,[are] upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth. 24:18 And it shall come to pass,[that]
he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that
cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the
windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake. 24:19 The EARTH IS UTTERLY BROKEN
DOWN, the earth is CLEAN DISSOLVED, the earth is moved exceedingly. 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro
like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression
thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
24:21 And it shall come to pass in that
day,[that] the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones [that are] on high,
and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 24:22
And they shall be gathered together,[as] prisoners are gathered in the pit, and
shall be shut up in the prison, and AFTER MANY DAYS THEY SHALL BE
VISITED."
Once again, another CLEAR allusion to
Satan in the wilderness--this desolated earth.
GE:
If this is “another CLEAR
allusion to Satan in the wilderness”— “to satan in … this desolated earth”,
I must be blind. If this— “satan in …
this desolated earth”, were another CLEAR allusion to the scapegoat
led into the wilderness by a fit man, both figures of Christ, I must be damned.
SDA:
Without question, the earthly Typical
Sanctuary Service included this scene.
GE:
Ag nonsense!
Go read any great day of atonement Scripture; where in it do you find
anything like “this … satan … scene”
which you have ravished and abducted from Isaiah 24?!
SDA:
If the scapegoat being taken out into
the wilderness did not represent Satan, then TELL ME, WHICH TYPICAL SERVICE
REPRESENTED THE BINDING OF SATAN?
GE:
_NO_ “typical service represented the binding of satan” and no ‘typical
service was meant that “represented the binding of satan”. The types or
representations or figures of the Old Testament were meant to project on Jesus
Christ. One of them was the scapegoat.
SDA:
ACCORDING TO YOUR THEOLOGY, OLD
TESTAMENT TYPOLOGY NEVER ONCE ALLUDED TO OR POINTED FORWARD TO THE BINDING OF
SATAN OF REVELATION 20. Adventists
CHOOSE to recognize that such TYPOLOGY EXISTED.
GE:
I am sure that you do.
SDA:
I guess that goes to show you that
Evangelicals are DETERMINED to destroy Old Testament Typology, because they
REFUSE to see that all New Testament Antitypes are the realities of Old
Testament Types!
GE:
Ja, sure … you SDAs in the fore-front.
SDA:
THE SACRIFICE OF CHRIST (ATONEMENT) WAS FULL AND COMPLETE and then it
was NOT!
GE:
What does that mean?
SDA:
By EGW: "THE SACRIFICE in behalf of man WAS FULL AND COMPLETE. The
condition of the ATONEMENT had been FULFILLED" Acts of the Apostles, p. 29
(emphasis added for your blind spiritual eyes)
GE:
O no; it’s meant for yourself! Read this statement again; it applies to
you; I already believe it. (Not of course that silly remark about the “unfallen
worlds”. What do we know about “unfallen worlds”?) “THE GREAT WORK OF
REDEMPTION HAD BEEN ACCOMPLISHED.” (Emphasis added for _your_, spiritual blind
eyes.) READ! “ACCOMPLISHED”.
I see;
SDA: “the sacrifice of Christ (atonement) was full and complete”;
EGW: “The sacrifice in behalf of man was full and complete”.
Yet,
SDA: “and then it was NOT!”;
EGW: “The CONDITION, of the atonement had been fulfilled”.
So the sacrifice of Christ or our atonement was NOT full and complete.
When are you, SDA, and EGW, lying? When you both deny the sacrifice of Christ
our atonement was full and complete and then not because the condition of the atonement
had been fulfilled, not the atonement as such as full and complete.
When you deny it, you lie. When you say, “… and then it was not” and or
“the condition” only of the atonement had been fulfilled, then you are lying—
you SDA and EGW. Lying, I say.
SDA:
"To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is
finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that
THE GREAT WORK OF REDEMPTION HAD BEEN ACCOMPLISHED. They with us share the
fruits of Christ's victory" The Desire of Ages, p. 758 (emphasis added for
your spiritual blind eyes)
THE SACRIFICE OF CHRIST (ATONEMENT) WAS NOT FULL AND COMPLETE
"Now while our great High Priest IS MAKING THE FINAL ATONEMENT for
us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ" The Great Controversy, p.
623 (emphasis added for your spiritual blind eyes)
WHICH EGW STATEMENT IS CORRECT? Answer wisely as your comments will be
recorded in HEAVEN and will be used against you! Don't insult the HOLY SPIRIT
with any foolish answers!!!?
You are creating arguments where there are none. You sound no different
than the atheist that creates "100 Bible Contradictions" (go do a
google search), or "100 prophecies that were not fulfilled", etc. You
do to Ellen White exactly what the Athiest does to the Bible. You're no
different!
There is a VAST difference between (1) SACRIFICIAL ATONEMENT, and (2)
INTERCESSORY ATONEMENT.
GE:
What is “INTERCESSORY ATONEMENT”? … it is a contradiction in terms …
extra-Biblical terms … plain untruth.
SDA:
Just like ON the DAY OF ATONEMENT, the Sacrifice of the animal was
COMPLETE once it had shed its blood.
But guess what? That didn't make the Day OF Atonement OVER! Lol
The priest STILL had to do a work IN the SANCTUARY AFTER THE LAMB WAS
SACRIFICED!
ALL the statements are above are in COMPLETE HARMONY---but it is
because you do not grasp and perspicaciously ascertain these deep insights
concerning soteriological principles revolving Atonement, you see
contradiction, when there is none.
In Great Controversy, page 623, it is in reference to Christ applying
the benefits of that atonement--thus atonement cannot be complete, otherwise,
there would be no need for Christ to intercede for us as High Priest in the
Sanctuary.
If Atonement was over, there would be NO GRACE! There would be NO
PARDON, and there would be NO MEDIATOR. PROBATION WOULD BE CLOSED FOR HUMANITY!
As long as there is still sin in this world, there HAS TO BE ATONEMENT!
Here is the PROOF that Christ's BLOOD is still ACTIVE on behalf of
sinners:
"And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the BLOOD
OF SPRINKLING, that SPEAKETH BETTER THINGS than that of Abel." (Hebrews
12:24)
This is the PRESENT ACTION--if ALL Atonement was finished at the Cross,
there would be NO BLOOD SPEAKING today.
Use some COMMON SENSE!
"But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an
unchangeable
priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come
unto God by him, seeing he EVER LIVETH to make INTERCESSION for them."
(Hebrews 7:24,25)
Think about it, if atonement was over, why does Christ have to perform
as High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary?? Why does He have to INTERCEDE on
behalf of sinners if atonement was over? Atonement has to do with the
"purging away", and the "handling of sin". If ALL sin was
blotted out of the sanctuary at the Cross, what is Christ doing??
You Evangelical, BAAL-WORSHIPING Christians cannot ANSWER these pointed
questions, because your minds are in BABYLON, and are turning your backs on the
Temple of the Lord and facing the EAST worshiping the SUN GOD!
Revelation
15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden
vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. 15:8 And the
temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and NO
MAN WAS ABLE TO ENTER INTO THE TEMPLE, till the seven plagues of the seven
angels were fulfilled.
22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is
filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous
still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 22:12 And, behold, I
COME QUICKLY; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his
work shall be.
Question: If ALL atonement was completed AT THE CROSS, then how can
these passages from Revelation above have any meaning?
Clearly, salvation is through the sanctuary. As soon as atonement is
over, there is NO WAY man can enter the temple to be purged from their sins.
Man can only enter into the
As soon as the 7 last plagues begin to poor, ALL ATONEMENT IS OVER!
No more intercessor!
No more Mediator between God and Man! He has LEFT the
You better be GLAD Atonement is still available, because if it was not,
you would have NO HOPE for salvation!
That ONE TIME sacrifice of Christ was SUFFICIENT and COMPLETE--because
it was that ONE TIME SACRIFICE that made atonement POSSIBLE. Now the High
Priest in Heaven performs His function in heaven AFTER His death!
THE SACRIFICE OF CHRIST (ATONEMENT) WAS FULL AND COMPLETE and then it
was NOT!
There is a VAST difference between (1) SACRIFICIAL ATONEMENT, and (2)
INTERCESSORY ATONEMENT.
In Acts of the Apostles, she is referring to the Sacrificial Atonement!
It was COMPLETE.
GE:
“She …”?!
XSDA:
After describing the "copy and shadow" of verse 5, how about
CONTINUING to read verses 6-13? Verse 6 starts with the word "BUT"!
That word means, "on the otherhand", and "except", which
indicates a DIFFERENCE.
It goes on to say, "But NOW,(meaning "at the present time, at
the present moment"), He has obtained a MORE EXCELLENT MINISTRY, by as
much as He is ALSO, THE MEDIATOR OF A BETTER COVENANT, which has been enacted
on BETTER PROMISES. For is the FIRST covenant had been faultless,(the one that
obviously contained the Law), then there would have been NO occasion sought for
a second." (Hebrews 8:6-7 NASB caps and parenthesis mine).
Back in Hebrews 7, verse 11 says, "Now IF perfection was through
the Levitical priesthood,(which Christ could NOT be a member of because He was
from the tribe of Judah verse 14)...what further need was there for ANOTHER
PRIEST TO ARISE according to the order of Melchizedek...For when the PRIESTHOOD
IS CHANGED, of necessity there takes place a CHANGE OF LAW also." (Hebrews
7:11-12 NASB caps and parenthesis mine.
Basically, while the "pattern" for the Heavenly Sanctuary
might have been the same as the one on earth, the MINISTRY that was to take
place in that Sanctuary was not! Christ did it ONCE and FOR ALL, (Hebrews
9:11-14, 10:9-11, 14, 7:26-28!!! That is undrscored by the fact, that Christ
"sat down at the right hand of God" (Hebrews 10:12)
after offering that sacrifice. Show me from the Bible where that was EVER done
in the ministry of the first covenant.
Lastly, the keyword in Malachi 4:4 is "which I commanded him in
Horeb for ALL ISRAEL." (NASB caps mine). Was the "law of Moses"
given to anyone other than
SDA:
So as we have seen the first goat is Jesus as our sacrifice, the High
Priest is our Risen Lord and He will take off His priest robe and place His hands
on satan/azazel the scapegoat when He comes for His people
GE:
The goat killed, is type of Jesus our High Priest, CRUCIFIED.
The scapegoat “let go”, is type of Jesus our High Priest, RAISED.
Both goats were types of Jesus our HIGH Priest,
A paraphrasing for me as faithful as possible of
Leviticus 16, would be …
The FIRST part of the great day of atonement _culminates_ …“17a— when
[our High Priest] goeth IN, to make atonement …
The FIRST part of the great day of atonement _culminated_
…
“17c— when our High Priest had MADE atonement …
for [us in] Himself … and
for all [the Sanctuary of] the Congregation [his Church].
The High Priest on the great day of atonement made atonement …
“17b— … UNTIL … when … He came OUT …
[“High Priest of our confession … forever … after the Order of Eternal
Life … MEDIATOR of the New Covenant.]
Our High Priest on the great day of atonement
“18a— WHEN He shall go OUT …
“18b— unto the Altar …
“18c— being Before-the-LORD …
[“in the [holy] place where He was crucified” John 19:41 …
“rested-up-again His Name is The Most Holy Place.” Isaiah 57:15]
Our High Priest on the great day of atonement
“18d— having had made atonement for it …
[… “HIMSELF … The Sanctuary … The Altar” …]
“18e— and the congregation] …
“18f— He took his blood …
[in reality his LIFE]
“18g— and put it round about upon the horns of the Altar …
[He, Anchor of the Soul, Place of Refuge, the Hope set before us.]
Our Great High Priest on the
great day of atonement
“19a— sprinkled of the blood [-symbol of his LIFE] …
“19b— with his FINGER SEVEN times …
Our Great High Priest on the great day of atonement
“with The Finger-of-God cast out
devils” (DEATH) and
by “the Seven Spirits-of-God-BEFORE-his-Throne”, had
“POWER to take up (his) LIFE again”.
Our Great High Priest on the great day of atonement TAKING UP HIS LIFE
AGAIN …
“19c— CLEANSED and HALLOWED …
“19C— … _IT_ …
“20b/18d,e— … it … the [most] Holy Place and Sanctuary of the
Congregation and The Altar [of his Sacrifice].
“20a— And when He had made an END of reconciling …
… our Great High Priest on the great day of atonement …
“20c— shall bring [had brought] the LIVE Goat, and …
“21a— shall lay [had lain] both hands [unreservedly] …
“21b— upon the head of the live goat [upon Himself] …
“21c— and shall confess [had confessed] over himself] …
“21d— all the iniquities of the children of
[RULER-WITH-GOD, Jesus Christ LORD ALMIGHTY GOD]
Our Great High Priest our Lord Almighty God
“21e— having put all our transgressions in all our sins …
“21f— upon the [LIVE] Goat’s head [upon his own head] …
“21g— shall send [had sent] Him away …
“21h— by the hand of a FIT / STRONG / POWERFUL PERSON
[The Power of Holiness The Holy Spirit of God] …
“21i— into the wilderness [of
“22— And the Goat (Christ) shall bear [had borne upon Himself all our
iniquities into a land not inhabited …
[“The waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced and are
INHABITED … As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem IN HER SOLEMN FEASTS,
SO, shall the WASTE cities be FILLED WITH FLOCKS OF MEN— people who will know
THAT I-AM, AM THE LORD!”]
About the two dates of the
9th and the 10th days of the Seventh Month …
18a— “He shall go OUT” …
… “out” of the tabernacle of skins or 'most holy place', the figure of
his grave;
20a— “He shall go out unto the altar that is BEFORE THE LORD”— figure
of Jesus “brought again from the dead”, 13:20, “Firstfruits Sheaf Offering
Waved Before the LORD”. (Leviticus 23:10,11)
FORE-part of chiasm
culminating point verse 23 …
“23— Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of the congregation (the land
of the living) and shall put off the linen garments (of corruptibility
1Corinthians 15:42-54) which he put on (John 19:40) when he went into the
[most] holy place [‘qodesh’ for the grave] and shall leave them there. (John
20:6,7)
AFTER-part of chiasm
culminating point verse 24; ebbs down to verse 34 …
“24a— And he (Aaron the high priest) shall wash his body with water at
home …”
‘makon’, ‘dwelling’, not, “the
holy place”; because he had TOUCHED A
DEAD THING and had to wait until sunset and it had become evening before he by
then – the next day – could again come into the congregation.
Therefore … the NEXT day “the tenth day of the month” (29)
“24b… he shall put on his (high priestly) garments [again] and come
forth [and RESUME] offering his burnt offering as well as the people’s burnt
offering and make atonement for himself and for the people; 25 and the fat of
the sin offering shall he burn upon the altar.”
From verse 26 we find a repetition of duties like which Aaron had to
make; which means, verse 26 repeats events of the day BEFORE. Like Aaron had to
“wash his body with water at home” …
“26— he that let go the goat for the scapegoat shall wash his clothes
and bathe his flesh in water, and AFTER WARDS [that is, on the NEXT day “the
tenth day of the month”] come into the camp.
Now on THIS day “the tenth day of the month” …
“27b— the bullock … and the goat
… shall be carried forth without the camp … [just like on passover happened
with “that which remained” of the passover lamb] … their skins, flesh, dung” –
and of course their BONES –, “shall be burned.”
“28— And he that burneth them shall wash his clothes and bathe his body
in water, and AFTERWARD … [that is, on the next and eleventh day of the month]
“… shall come into the camp [again].”
Recuperation and Summary …
“29— This shall be a statute forever unto you : In the Seventh Month,
on the tenth day of the month … 30 atonement for you to cleanse you shall be
made … 31 It [“the tenth day of the month”] shall be a sabbath … ye shall
afflict your souls.”
So what –EXACTLY– happened on “the TENTH day of the month”?
… ONLY that which is mentioned, from in verse 24b, and from that the
high priest had “COME FORTH” BACK into the congregation— only that MENTIONED …
… UNTIL … the “Fit Person” AGAIN – in verse 28 – had bathed himself and
had put on clean clothes— NOT the sacrifice of the live goat OR the sprinkling
with his blood which belonged to and happened “in the NINTH day of the month
shall ye celebrate your sabbath … ALSO on the tenth day of this Seventh Month
day of atonement.” Leviticus 23:32; 27.
Remember our first lecture, and our first ‘misconception’ we spoke
about? Well, here is the proof, the TWO
dates are NO, misconception or contradiction. … what is it that really EXPLAINS
the two dates?
What explained the BIG difference between the 14th and the 15th days of
the passover month? THE SAME THING!
And that thing was AND IS … the “BONE-day”! The forgotten DAY-OF-FORGOTTENNESS—
… “the in between sabbath day”, ‘to metaksu sabbaton’—
… BURIAL-day!
… “PUT OFF” his High Priest's robe … … washed his clothes and bathed
his body" LET GO the scapegoat” represents resurrection
… WASHED, THEN PUT ON his High Priest's robe when He came back from the
dead - that is, OUT, to "cleanse" his sanctuary, "His
people". Leviticus 16:23-26
SDA:
I recommend Stephen N. Haskell's book:
"The Cross and Its Shadow"
One of the best books on Types and Antitypes you will ever find. Have
you read it?
GE:
Sorry, SDA. I for many years scarcely have had time to read my Bible.
I could nevertheless recommend the greatest work ever on the suffering
of Christ, Klaas Schilder's 'Chirst in his Suffering' Trilogy. If any one work
has formed my 'faith', this - next to the (Greek) Bible -, has been it.
What delight was it to me, to have learned that this oevre was first
within arm's length, also on the shelves of my childhood friend.
SDA:
By the way, GE, I just want you to know that your posts are extremely confusing.
I have not even read the last 8 posts or so you have made, because I
can barely make it half -way. It's your writing style, and
strange symbols,
and choppy tone. Very unprofessional.
GE:
And your not even reading my posts, is ‘very professional’, hey?
SDA:
If I knew what you were saying in your posts, I would know what you are
saying before even attempting to refute whatever it is you're saying. So just
want to encourage you to write clearer, because your confusing way of
presenting the gospel is a sign in itself to me that it must be wrong. Because
truth is very clear and simple to the average person. That's how the Bible is
to be understood, and that's how God meant for it to be conveyed.
GE:
‘Very professional’!
XSDA:
You should be recommending John 16: 13 to find truth and NOT books from
another EGW freak or false messenger who believes he can do better than John
16: 13!! Think before you make recommendations on books that you don't INSULT
GOD, The Holy Spirit and the promise by JESUS in John 16: 13!! Do you accept
John 16: 13 ??.
GE:
It doesn't seem you realise Jesus spoke to his disciples ... the
Church.
There is no such thing as far as I am concerned as, ‘I and my Bible
alone’. No, this is my Confession of Faith in this regard,
I believe the Scriptures, the true, only and closed canon
of authority for and in the faith, doctrine and living.
God speaks in the Scriptures
through his Spirit in the Congregation
of the Son in Whom we have life.
Therefore, there also is no such thing as the Holy Spirit speaking
through the Scriptures that is not His speaking IN THE CHURCH.
SDA:
People who don't know how to interpret the scriptures, like you, need
books to educate you. Since the Holy Spirit is not guiding you in your
interpretation of these passages anyway.
You need a Phillip to "explain" them to you.
GE:
We all do!
Ellen White wasn’t Phillip.
SDA:
The first Goat of Lev 16 was one atonement and the High Priest is
another atonement in the Holy and most Holy place and the scapegoat must make a
separate atonement
you know that the "final" atonement will be made when all sin
and sinners are finally destroyed
GE:
Christ made atonement "once for all" by "sacrifice of
Himself" "Finished" was Jesus' own word for the atonement He had
wrought.
SDA:
Day of Atonement is in the seventh Months first day before the fall
Harvest, this fulfillment is fulfilled by Christ being the High priest who
ascended into the Heavenly sanctuary to do the work of atonement in our behalf.
27FBs The official line is as follows
"As the atoning death of Christ reconciled the world to God, so His
mediation, or the applications of the merits of His sinless life and
substituionary death, make reconciliaition ....
GE:
The 'official' mistake of SDAism.
"the atoning death of Christ
reconciled the world to God" and God with all believers."
THAT, IS, or rather HAD BEEN, what "the applications of the merits of His sinless life and substitutionary
death" availed and meant ON EARTH.
"It is finished" says Jesus made full and final 'atonement' =
'reconciliation' = "forgiveness of sins" = 'made peace' =
"saved".
Now He is doing it all over ... is "making reconciliation" 'in
heaven' for what? To repeat what He had done and finished and PERFECTED
"once for all"?
‘Mediation’ is not ‘reconciliation’; it is representation.
‘Mediation’ is for those in Christ whose sins are ‘atoned’ for and who
had been ‘reconciled with God’ through his death.
SDA:
you cant do away with the verse that says with the shedding of blood is
no remmission of sins. Lev The scaoegoat didn't shed blood so no atonement
period.
GE:
Like the First Sheaf Wave Offering was the passover's presentation of
the LIFE of Christ; the scapegoat was the day of atonement's presentation of
the LIFE of Christ.
Atonement, Sanctuary and
‘investigative judgment’
SDA:
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had
spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood
of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both
the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, This is the blood of the covenant
which God has commanded you. 21 Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the
tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And according to the law
almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there
is no remission.
23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the
heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with
better sacrifices than these.
The text is clearly identifying the work of Moses at the inauguration
of the sanctuary and claiming that Christ performed this same work in heaven at
the start - at His one entry - after His one sacrifice was completed.
GE:
The text turned about 180% yes!
The text clearly states that "it was necessary that the
COPIES" : sanctuaries : "built with hands", "should be
purified with these", blood sacrifices; "but the heavenly things
themselves" NOT, but that the Heavenly Sanctuary Jesus Christ ON EARTH, should
be purified "with BETTER than these sacrifices", namely, “BY THE
SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF” on the cross on the hill of Golgotha for the purifying of
HIMSELF of the defilement with the sins of men.
Now I know from a life-time of experience that NO Seventh-day Adventist
will admit, or understand; but will not return answer at all and if he did,
would answer with still more un-Scriptural IJ JARGON.
SDA:
Maybe Rev 3:7 and 8 is the revealing of God's true character. Maybe it
started in 1844, stalled into legalism, revived in 1888, stalled again, and now
this is it. Last call.
Yes according to Leviticus 16 after He leaves the
GE:
Yes; and it is THEN - verse 19 - that it is written he
"CLEANSES" the "altar" (v18end).
It is THIS 'cleansing' that in verse 20a is called the
"reconciling",
so that it is a cleansing / reconciliation / atonement made of / for
the ENTIRE "holy place" that INCLUDED "the tabernacle of the
congregation, AND, the altar".
'Most holy place' and 'holy place' are considered as ONE and WHOLE; it
is NOT a 'cleansing' or an 'atonement' for the 'most', 'holy (place)'
exclusively.
On the contrary, the 'most' 'holy place' is not mentioned as or when,
having been 'cleansed'. It speaks for itself it included the 'second apartment'
if it is said that "the tabernacle of the congregation, AND, the
altar" were cleansed.
Yes; blood was also "sprinkled" in the 'second apartment' or
'most holy'; but THERE, the sprinkling describes "atonement ... in the
midst of their uncleanness" (v16end).
So to 'sprinkle' and to smear blood was the "OFFERING" of the
'LIFE' of the sacrifice as a token of BOTH atonement and / or reconciliation,
and /or "cleansing"
SDA:
I didn't mean to contradict you; I just quoted Young ... who says what
the Britannica says; but also that gethsemane means "wine-press". So
what's the issue?
GE:
I have believed for many years exactly that the first night of the
three days and three nights and of the first day they killed the passover, was
Jesus' descent to hell - just what you believe (as I understand you)
The main meaning given for
SDA:
The reason I objected to your statement is this... If someone is making
a point trying to draw attention to the subject and someone else interrupts and
interjects "it can also mean this" it is confusing, especially if the
meaning has a main point in the presenters logic. It is disruptive to the flow
of the intent of the presenter. You listed everything you seemed to be in
objection to, seemingly including the
GE:
I'm glad you see the intent of the fact that the night Jesus was in
'That', "when he suffered the wrath of God in hell", was also
the treading of the wine-press of Revelation 14:19,20. 'Wine' for 'blood'.
Jesus received our judgment upon Himself.
And therefore it may be objectionable that the meaning of
SDA:
Had the progenitors of the IJ doctrine been with computers as
we are now, then
they would have realized how a lifetime data can easily be scanned WiFi style
by heavenly intelligences at a mouse-click instead of at a courtroom setting of
a lengthy investigation claimed to have started in 1844 where a name is called
one after the other starting from the dead.
You make a very good point. SDAs don't believe or teach that we can
know exactly or precisely how the sins and our lives are recorded. The Bible
refers to "scrolls," but of course people's sins are not recorded in
scrolls.
The point is that people's sins are recorded. Whether they are in scrolls
or in books or in something like a computer is really irrelevent. What you
say only shows that you misunderstand the Investigative Judgment. SDAs don't
believe the Investigative Judgment requires a "lengthy
investigation." For one thing, time doesn't mean the same in heaven that
it means on the earth.
GE:
For me, the solution to all the imaginary un-understandables, is
simple.
Jesus Christ _is_ 'The Book of Life'.
And our sins are written on his back and hand palms and feet, Isaiah
50:6 Psalm 129:3, Job 31:7 John 20:27 Psalm 22:16 Isaiah 49:16.
God knew every sin of ours from everlasting and in Jesus Christ the
Resurrected Crucified they shall not be brought to remembrance for
evermore.
SDA:
You are adding "strenuous qualifications" for you to be convicted
by the plain saying "It is written before me"
GE:
Jesus Christ The Word of God “STANDS”, "WRITTEN BEFORE ME",
God!
Jesus Christ is First Sheaf Offering Waved "BEFORE THE
LORD" from
the dead, having SUFFERED and being CRUCIFIED and having DIED : FOR OUR
SINS.
God knows every sin of every one of us in Jesus Christ "the faithful and
true Witness". "It is Written" is He, "before" God
sitting in judgment. Christ is He who appears before the One of Many Days as
the books are opened; it is HE, standing before and sitting upon the thrones
that were cast, 'the Record' of our sins— its FULL STATISTICS AND TESTED
CURE.
"THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS" is Christ the Book of LIFE. Yes, the
Book also of death. For there was none in whose way the Stone of Stumbling has
not blocked the way somehow, to some, unto condemnation; to some, unto eternal
life.
SDA:
Something very interesting in the LXX on this topic, the topic of
rest.
Mic 2:10 "arise and go, for this is no place <04496> of rest
<04496> because of the uncleanness <02932> that brings on
destruction, A painful destruction.
The word translated "rest" is the same one used in Ps.95:11.
Ps. 95:11 is the passage quoted in Hebrews 3:11: "They shall not enter
into my rest."
In Micah's time, there was no rest because of uncleanness.
Jesus spoke of us finding rest for our souls through knowledge of him:
Mt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I
will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in
heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Part of this passage is a quote from Jeremiah. The LXX passage from
Jeremiah 6:16 which says "ye shall find rest for your souls" chooses
a word which means "purification" instead of "rest". Notice
Brenton's LXX English:
Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask
for the old paths
of the Lord; and see what is the good way, and walk in it, and ye shall find
purification for your souls. But they said, We will not walk in them.
GE:
In the resurrection the saved are finally purified.
2Chronicles 19:17 mentions the cleansing of the sanctuary on the sixteenth day
of the Passover Month, undeniable from the context, the Sabbath.
Note the things that indicate that day was the Sabbath ...
e.g., ... the sounding of the trumpet ...
... more ...?
SDA:
The Ten Commandments are the same thing as the Covenant per Deut.
4:13. But the Statutes and judgments are
different as found in Deut. 4:1-10. Yes,
all of them should show us that God wanted His people to be different than the
rest of the worlds kingdoms. Isn't that
what the word 'holy' means, to be set apart?
The ark of the covenant contained only the Ten Commandments written
down on stone. The Ark of the Covenant
in heaven comes down to this earth in order to prove what God's judgment is
measured by, and this only contains the Ten Commandments. (Rev. 11:19)
If you mean inside the
GE:
The ark was the coffin of the Law, and the most holy place of the
sanctuary its grave FIGURE of Jesus Christ God's LAW-WORD, BURIED, but right
next to the blossoming branch of Aaron to signify the Resurrection of the Lord
Jesus Christ from the dead ... ACCORDING TO THE VERY LAW INSIDE of LIFE
VICTORIOUS.
The SDA church has NO IDEA of the true meaning of ANYTHING in, of, or
about the earthly sanctuary or its services, what the heaven's Sanctuary of
Jesus Christ Himself through dying death, being buried and dead in his grave
and RESURRECTED right "_FROM_" it both.
SDA:
The Ark of the Covenant only has the Covenant in it and the covenant
was and still is the ten commandments.
… keep reading--those words were
ONLY the covenant that God originally wrote with His own finger--the ten
commandments--those have no beginning and NO end--they last forever. All of the
statutes and codes and regulations died with the nation of
GE’s narrow view of the Covenant is not supported by
Scripture. Notice what it says in Exodus 24:3-8 when the Covenant was
ratified with blood and a banquet:
Then Moses came and recounted to the people all the words of the
LORD and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one voice and
said, "All the words which the LORD has spoken we will do!"
Moses wrote down all the words of the LORD. Then he arose early in
the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain with twelve pillars
for the twelve tribes of
Exo 24:8 So Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and
said, "Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD has made with
you in accordance with all these words."
The Ten Commandments are the summary of the covenant. The
rest of God's Law
explains the details of the covenant.
GE:
You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!
Now just apply your principles to their FULL CONSEQUENCES!
... and don't you arrive at exactly the conclusions I have, above ...?
Surely the saved are 'finally cleansed' in the resurrection of the
dead.
Paul says we are "changed" --- "changed" from
"the corruptible", to "incorruptible". "That which
thou sowest" - the sinful old man of flesh - "is not quickened"
- but is 'finally cleansed' "when this corruptible shall have put on
incorruption and this mortal shall have put on immortality when shall be
brought to pass the saying that is written, Death (because of sin and
sinfulness) is swallowed up in victory."
SDA:
Simply means that all the sins that are confessed are sent beforehand
to judgment. They are recorded there and forgiven but they are not canceled. When
Jesus shall make the final atonement they will be blotted out unless the record
reveals unconfessed sins or sins that had been confessed but not overcome. This
blotted out of these records from these sins is the cleansing of the sanctuary
in Heaven.
GE:
O my God and Saviour my Lord, thank you for your forgiveness of my sins
in and through Jesus Christ in Thy "Name The Most Holy Place
Being-Rested-Up-Again" from the dead, "ONCE FOR ALL" and
FOREVER. Thank you for Isaiah 57:15 and ALL your Word of Scripture and BLESSED
ASSURANCE to me of your pardon, mercy and grace forevermore and
irrevocable.
SDA:
Here is a text from Hebrews, which discusses Jesus' role in the
heavenly sanctuary.
Jesus is at the right hand of God, on the throne of grace and stands ready
to help you in time of need. And He has since the first century:
Heb 4:14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through
the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our
weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet
without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne
of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
In the old testament sanctuary only one man, the high priest, could go
in to the most holy place, and that was only once a year. Leviticus describes
how they could not just come in at any time:
We have greater access every day to a Holy God in the true sanctuary, than the
high priest did at the
GE:
For SDAs Jesus just plays some “role in the heavenly sanctuary”. But the
above is that text which describes Jesus' High Priestly reconciliatory work in
the 'Heavenly Sanctuary' of his very
BEING "when God ... by the glory of the Father ... RAISED CHRIST FROM
THE DEAD" and the sepulchre and ark of the Testimony of the Lord
"REVIVING" was ... "Jesus at the right hand of God, on the
throne of grace, standing ready to help you in time of need"— that is, to
also raise YOU, from death, from the dead and from the grave ... as He has done
"once for all" since, and in, the very "moment, in the twinkling
of an eye", that He "put on incorruptibility".
SDA:
In the old testament sanctuary only one man, the high priest, could go
in to the most holy place, and that was only once a year. Leviticus describes
how they could not just come in at any time:
GE:
On the great day of atonement only the HIGH priest ministered;
SDAs say Jesus was no priest when He on the Great Day of Atonement
ministered.
On the great day of atonement only the HIGH priest ministered SEVERAL
TIMES going in and out of the holy place as well as of the most holy place;
SDAs teach the high priest could go in to the most holy place only once
a year claiming Leviticus describes how they (Sic.) could not just come in at
any time".
SDA:
Lev 16:2 and the LORD said to
Moses, "Tell Aaron your brother not to come at any time into the
God would appear in a cloud over the mercy seat. They could not just
enter any time.
In a sense the sanctuary was like a king's court. The inner sanctuary
was like a throne room if you will. If you remember the story of Esther she
could not go into the presence of the king except when summoned. The same
applied here. God dwelt among the Israelites as their King. They could only
approach on His terms. The mercy seat was where He dwelt like a King on the
throne.
There are a number of texts that talk about God dwelling above the
mercy seat, on the ark:
Ex 25:21 And you shall put the mercy seat on the top of the ark, and in
the ark you shall put the testimony that I shall give you. 22 There I will meet
with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are
on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all that I will give
you in commandment for the people of Israel.
Ex 30:6 And you shall put it in front of the veil that is above the ark
of the testimony, in front of the mercy seat that is above the testimony, where
I will meet with you.
Num 7:89 And when Moses went into the tent of meeting to speak with the
LORD, he heard the voice speaking to him from above the mercy seat that was on
the ark of the testimony, from between the two cherubim; and it spoke to him.
1Sa 4:4 So the people sent to Shiloh and brought from there the ark of
the covenant of the LORD of hosts, who is enthroned on the cherubim. And the
two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, were there with the ark of the covenant
of God.
2Sa 6:2 And David arose and went with all the people who were with him
from Baale-judah to bring up from there the ark of God, which is called by the
name of the LORD of hosts who sits enthroned on the cherubim.
God dwelt among the people in the sanctuary. It was not like when God
walked with Adam and Eve face to face. Sin changed that. They were cast out of
the garden. Sinful man could not be in God's immediate presence. The sanctuary
was a way for Him to live among sinful man, take care of their sins, and reign
as their King.
Exo 25:8 And let them make me a
sanctuary, that I may dwell in their midst.
The rites of the priests cleansed the people. The rites of the priest
were to remove uncleanness that would defile the dwelling place of God among
them:
Lev 15:31 "Thus you shall
keep the people of
While this system provided cleansing and provided a way for a Holy God
to dwell among sinful man, it was not the ideal that only the high priest could
enter, and that only once per year, and then only by first offering for his own
sin. It showed the radical separation of sinful man from a Holy God.
However, in the New Testament Jesus changed all that. He went as the
perfect High Priest, and offered the perfect Sacrifice, in the true heavenly
sanctuary, and now we can all go right to Gods presence, to the throne of grace
to find help in time of need.
Heb 10:19 Therefore, brothers,
since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus,
20 by the new and living way that he
opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the
house of God, 22 let us draw near with a
true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an
evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope
without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.
Here Hebrews 10 again elaborates on this new and living way that Jesus
opened up for us. It says we can enter by the blood of Christ. We can draw near
with full assurance of faith.
It compares what Christ did for us to the dedication service of the
priest. Our hearts have been sprinkled clean, and our bodies washed with pure
water. We can go into the presence of the King, and find help in time of need,
and grace for our sins.
We have greater access every day to a Holy God in the true sanctuary,
than the high priest did at the
GE:
God would appear in a cloud over the mercy seat. In a sense the inner
sanctuary was like the sepulchre of the dead. No one can enter except when
summoned. The same applied to Christ. He approached on God’s terms : “The
strength of (our) sin is the Law.”
The mercy seat was not where God “dwelt on the throne”. He
dwelt in the
shekina or “cloud OVER the mercy seat”, “above the mercy seat, on the ark” and
OVER the Law underneath and inside it. “The strength of sin is the Law” … “Thou
shalt surely DIE!”— the Gospel promised in the beginning! “The strength of sin
is the Law” and the Strength of the Law is Jesus Christ Anointed-of-God!
Exodus 25:21 And you shall put the mercy seat on the top of the ark,
and in the ark you shall put the testimony that I shall give you. 22 There I
will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two
cherubim that are on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all
that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel.
THIS IS ALMIGHTY GOD’S APPOINTMENT WITH JESUS CHRIST IN THE DAY THAT HE
RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD!
The budding twig of Aaron testifies …
Exodus 30:6 And you shall put it (the altar to burn incense on) in
front of the veil in front of the mercy seat that is above the ark of the
testimony where I will meet with you.
The altar of INCENSE stood in the holy place or “tent of meeting”— its
incense representing the “cloud” of the LORD’S appearing INSIDE the most holy place.
Numbers 7:89 And when Moses went into the tent of meeting to speak with
the LORD, he heard the voice speaking to him from above the mercy seat that was
[INSIDE the most holy place] on the ark of the testimony, from between the two
cherubim; and it spoke to him” while Moses stood OUTSIDE the most holy place
and in “the tent of meeting”.
1Samuel 4:4 So the people sent to Shiloh and brought from there the ark
of the covenant of the LORD of hosts, who is enthroned on the cherubim …” RIGHT
WHERE IN the most holy sanctuary of “the King’s house”, “the KING WAS SET UPON
THE THRONE OF THE KINGDOM”— having been
“RAISED FROM THE DEAD BY THE GLORY OF THE FATHER …” “… AS WRITTEN IN THE LAW OF
MOSES, with rejoicing and with singing AS IT WAS ORDAINED BY DAVID. … And all
the people of the land rejoiced, and the City was quiet AFTER THAT THEY HAD
SLAIN ATHALIAH WITH THE SWORD.”
“So when This Corruptible (the Man Jesus) shall have put on
incorruption, and This Mortal (Son of Man) shall have put on immortality, THEN
(IN THAT DAY) shall be brought to pass the WORD that is written [in the Law and
Prophets], Death is swallowed up IN VICTORY
[“… and all the works of God were finished”].”
“Thanks be to God who gave
_us_ the Victory through our Lord and Saviour God, Jesus Christ.” This is Paul in the ending of his Sabbath
Day’s sermon, speaking, having written it down in Letter to the Congregations.
After this, Paul continued to further speak “… concerning the collection for
the saints” “on the First Day of the week”, 1Corinthians 16:1
2Samuel 6:2 And David arose and went with all the people who were with
him from Baal-Judah to bring up from there the ark of God, which is called by
the name of the LORD of hosts who sits enthroned on the cherubim.
… DO NOT NEGLECT TO READ THIS IN ITS NECESSARY CONTEXT IN 5:22-25 to
see GOD’S PRESENCE WITH DAVID AS WITH JESUS CHRIST IN COMBAT ON THE BATTLEFIELD
“on the (very) first day when they always had to kill the passover” the
fourteenth day of the First Month of the Passover of Yahweh.
XSDA:
God bless you in your decision not to preach 'ij'. From that comment, I
take it you don't believe in the Investigative Judgment?
GE:
I also, used to be a Seventh-day Adventist when young and the Lord
showed me knowledge "MORE FULLY" inter alia in the beginning, about
the Sabbath, and I and my knowledge were rejected as here and now my knowledge
and understanding are still rejected and are made fun of or are
insulted. But taken seriously or rebutted responsibly by a single SDA as
yet? No! Not that I know of.
SDA:
I myself have little interest in "rebutting" former
Seventh-day Adventists who have rejected such fundamental beliefs as the
Investigative Judgment and are of the opinion they have greater light than the
"False sympathy must die. It commenced in heaven at the fall of
Satan, and has existed ever since. This sympathy has blunted the straight
testimony. It pleases Satan well." Manuscript Releases, Volume 15, 336
GE:
Do you believe the visions of Ellen G. White? Do you believe her 'Early
Writings'? Do you believe her vision of the
WHAT could BE that 'fuller' proclamation of the Sabbath?
WHAT, BUT JESUS CHRIST?!
WHAT, but Jesus Christ in "the POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION"?!
... so …
WHAT, but Jesus Christ who was "RAISED BY THE GLORY OF THE
FATHER"?!
... and while speaking about and proclaiming "the _Sabbath_ more
fully" ...
... WHAT else then, than
Jesus Christ
"RAISED BY THE GLORY OF THE FATHER" : "IN FULLNESS OF
[prophetic] FULFILMENT OF THE SABBATH [in and by Jesus Christ] IN THE VERY
DAYLIGHT OF THE SABBATH as it MID-AFTERNOON OF THE SABBATH DAY began to dawn
towards the First Day of the week", Matthew 28:1?!
Ah! No surprise the Sunday worshippers realized, then strategically in
good time, adulterated that text among others to the same implication … while
the sabbatharians ALL comfortably SLEPT ON.
SDA:
One test of those bearing new light is that their testimony is in
harmony with the law and the testimony.
They will use the bible and the Spirit of Prophecy to promote their new
truth, whatever it might be. That is the
sheeps clothing, the covering of the wolf, sincerely presented scripture and
piously presented Sister White quotes.
Their are certain pillars of Adventism that must not, cannot ever be
moved. The sanctuary and the
investigative judgments are such, this is in essence the first angels message. If any Adventist rejects these fundamenatl
truths, tears them down, attempts to replace them with "new truth",
he is a false teacher.
To the law and the testimony, which is the Spirit of Prophecy, test all
things, hold fast that which is good.
The Investiagtive Judgment is a primary truth brought into the light
with the Spirit of Prophecy, those who reject that truth, reject the prophet.
GE:
This discussion is about the first old four cylinder engine, the Fourth
Commandment's Sabbath Day. I'm not now speaking about the other models you are
referring to.
Please answer for your stand on the Sabbath question and its
proclamation, "MORE FULLY"?
WHAT HAPPENED TO MRS WHITE'S PREDICTION?!
SDA:
THIS discussion is about the SANCTUARY, read the TOPIC
headline. This
particular part of the discussion deals with your rejection of the Seventh-day
Adventist doctrine on the sanctuary, the investigative judgment and the first
angels message. It has nothing to do with any Sabbath issues.
GE:
Tell your Seventh-day Adventist brothers and sisters "the
sanctuary, the investigative judgment and the first angels message ... ha[ve]
nothing to do with any Sabbath issues"; let's hear what they have to say ...
So are you not going to tell us WHAT HAPPENED TO MRS WHITE'S PREDICTION?!
SDA:
As I said earlier, I will not enter into a debate with one who has
rejected the light of present truth, the first angels message. Nor will I offer a blessing of any kind for
them.
GE:
No; you won't for whatever reason you want. It doesn't mean I reject
the light of present truth; it does not prove I reject the message carried by
the first angel. All it proves is that you and I have different explanations
for and different interpretations of your arbitrarily and ever so vaguely
referred to text of Scripture.
CAN you though, answer for your stand on the Sabbath question and its
proclamation, "MORE FULLY"? WHAT HAPPENED TO MRS WHITE'S PREDICTION?!
I am beginning to get the impression you cannot, so you hide behind
this pretence of yours, that you "... will not enter into a debate with
one who has rejected the light of present truth, the first angels
message."
Come on; I honestly BELIEVE Seventh-day Adventists are honest and brave
in their beliefs whatever they may be. Be prepared at any time to give account
for the faith that in you is, brother; it is the Lord's commandment through
Paul to us all.
I'll tell what 'my new light' is, that Christ rose from the dead
"on the Sabbath Day late, mid-afternoon before the First Day of the
week", Matthew 28:1.
That's it!
Now may the Holy Spirit guide us further in all Truth.
SDA:
Well as you have seen a few dozen times by now - all the sacrifices for
all the services are met in the ONE sacrifice of Heb 10 - on the cross... once.
One Sacrifice and ONE entry into the Heavenly Sanctuary.
As you well know - SDAs have never argued that in heaven Christ must
come back to earth and offer Himself up "again" on the cross for each
event in the heavenly sanctuary.
Thus the purification made for sins - on the cross - is brought into
the heavenly sanctuary "once".
This is true for the Passover it is also true for the Day of Atonement
and for the inauguration of both the
One sacrifice, One entry into the Sanctuary - but then begins the
inauguration, followed by the
GE:
The God-given imperative WHOLE AND WHOLENESS of all this, happened,
"in the twinkling of an eye”, “at the last trump", and "The
Dead", "Jesus the Crucified", ROSE FROM THE DEAD.
The God-given imperative WHOLE AND WHOLENESS of all this, happened, in
the One Man, in the body of His Person in the flesh in the sepulchre, RAISED
FROM THE DEAD AND GLORIFIED, AND EXALTED, AND CROWNED AND ENTHRONED “and set at
the right hand of God”.
One sacrifice, One Resurrection, One entry into the Sanctuary, One
receiving Lordship and Title and Honour, One Inauguration,
"BEING-RESTED-UP-AGAIN-HIS-NAME-IS-
THE-MOST-HOLY-PLACE.”
The God-given imperative WHOLE AND WHOLENESS of all this, happened, in
the year of our Lord when He was three and thirty and halve years old in the
First Month on the sixteenth day of the month, "SABBATH'S, in the fullness
of fulfilment in the mid-afternoon" in the Eternal Purpose of God Tri-Une
in the FULL FELLOWSHIP OF THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT, "IN
THE FULLNESS OF TIME", WHEN "GOD FINISHING ALL HIS WORKS, THE SEVENTH
DAY, RESTED."
SDA:
Daniel 7 says that in that 1844 event "The Son of Man comes in the
clouds of Heaven -- to the Ancient of Days".
What's interesting is that the Millerites did not consider that verse
until after the Great Disappointment. Like most Christians, the Millerites
thought that verse was a description of the second coming. But as you point out, when we look closely at
it, it becomes clear that it is describing the coming of the Son of Man to the
Father in the context of judgment.
That's very significant. It is
also obvious that this judgment occurs prior to the second coming of Christ.
GE:
I don't find in Daniel 7 that it "... says that in that 1844 event
"The Son of Man comes in the clouds of Heaven -- to the Ancient of
Days".
SDA:
Wow, powerful verse Daniel 7:13.
That opens up a whole new view, for me, of the inaugeration of the
Sanctuary after the ascension and the impact of 1844. Good stuff on this thread if you can cut
through the clutter and trash to find it.
Like digging for hidden treasure.
:)
GE:
Let’s cut through the clutter and trash to find that powerful verse
Daniel 7:13, that in its purity opens up a whole new view of the Inauguration
and Enthronement of Christ "WHEN GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD AND SET
..." "Our Sanctuary" whose "NAME IS, THE MOST HOLY
PLACE", "… at the right hand of God in heavenly Majesty".
That scene in Daniel 7 is Daniel's vision of Jesus Christ, when “the
LORD”, "by the GLORY of the Father", "the Seventh Day,
REVIVED", "having raised Christ from the dead", "with the
Power of the Spirit of Holiness" Exodus 31:17 Romans 6:4 Ephesians 1:19
Romans 1:4 Philippians 3:10.
SDA:
I speak for myself that the Sabbath can't lose any of it's significance
not now and not ever, without the IJ!
The IJ is NOT found in Rev. 12:17.
Revelation 14 is very clear about a future judgment. Yet this judgment precedes the Second Coming. There's no way out of it.
GE:
Revelation 14 is very clear about a future judgment. This judgment
ACCOMPANIES the Second Coming and RESURRECTION of the dead ... of ALL, the
dead. There's no way out of it for anyone.
But Revelation 14 ALSO is very clear about the PAST judgment that
ACCOMPANIED Christ’s first Coming-from-the-dead. There's no way out of it for
anyone.
SDA:
Why is there an investigation of the saints? John Anderson makes a
convincing case from Scripture that, "[God] will conduct a divine
inquiry into each case, not because He does not know the just reward of every
person, but to inspire in the hearts of those who are not omniscient, as He is,
that He operates from a position of knowledge and fairness." (John T.
Anderson, Investigating the Judgment, p. 65)
GE:
>> “Why is there an investigation of the saints?”<<
Thare is, no, “investigation of the saints”!
“Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect?! God,
justifieth! Who is it that condemns?! Christ is it that died, more important,
Christ is it that is risen again – who is exalted at the right hand of God— HE
is it who makes intercession for us!”
So why and how can there be “an investigation of the saints” after
Christ and after what He had done?!
What will be the use of “an investigation of the saints”, “as … He
operates from a position of knowledge and fairness”? Worthless
imagination!
In any case, who wouldn't know God’s judgment when the saints are
raised from the dead already?
SDA:
So you are saying then that the Bible is worthless imagination?
I cannot help if you cannot make sense out of it.
It's what the Bible says.
When scriptures say, "And all the churches shall know that I am He
who investigates [ereunao] minds and hearts. And will give to each one of you
according to your works." (Rev. 2:23), it means only what it says.
The Greek word that is used for "searches" has a meaning of
"thorough investigation" according to some of the best Greek
dictionaries.
The point is to instill the seriousness of the time we are living. That God's all-powerful and scrutinizing eye
is watching every secret sin you are committing, and recording it. And if we don't make up our mind to be
overcomers, and have a clean and pure heart, through the power of God, they
will come up in the judgment and be held against us.
GE:
No; I don't say it. YOU say it's worthless imagination of surrealistic
vanities 1814 years AFTER the first and two almost centuries now, BEFORE the
LAST great and SINGLE day of judgment of the LORD GOD!
Then you -like is your manner- tell other people what they think as if
you can read their minds. Strange that every time, you are right and they are
wrong.
SDA:
Desmond Ford is the one who showed … that Jesus went into the immediate
presence of God the Father following his ascension.
GE:
Jesus went into the immediate presence of God the Father, actually, in,
and through, at, and AS IT IS WRITTEN, "God RAISING Christ from the dead
SET HIM AT HIS OWN RIGHT HAND IN HEAVENLY MAJESTY AND DIGNITY, EXALTING HIM FAR
ABOVE ALL PRINCIPALITY ... for "God raised Christ from the dead BY THE
GLORY OF THE FATHER" …
… immediately; there and then – in the most holy place of the
"I will return (from the dead) and will build again The Tabernacle
of David” --- Jesus Christ
"This Jesus crucified hath God RAISED UP ... THEREFORE BEING BY
THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD EXALTED."
When?
"He saith Himself: The Lord said unto my Lord, SIT THOU ON MY RIGHT
HAND."
God seeing this before, spake of the RESURRECTION of Christ: He would
RAISE UP Christ TO SIT ON HIS THRONE."
No moment later or after --- _IN_, _with_, _by_, _at_, _through_
"RAISING Christ up".
"His Name being-rested-up-again is: The
Objected Bob Ryan to this truth, sneered he, "Jesus entering
Jesus"!
But God does not sneer at being "God-in-God" :
"El-Beth-El"!
“God-in-Christ” is “God-with-us”. THUS, is Christ, “Our Sanctuary” and
God.
It _happened_: "God RAISING Christ FROM: the dead and from within
the realm of death and the grave: FORTH --- TO "the EXCEEDING GREATNESS of
God's Power" --- its pinnacle.
SDA:
When we understand these verses and the time to start the days then it
can be disciphered,
Da 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said
unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning
the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the
sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Da 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred
days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
The prophecy is by the Jubilee calendar, each day a year and it has to
start on a Jubilee year as it is a new beginning, and BC 457 is that date. The 70 weeks of yrs. alloted to the jews then
are "determined" from the same starting time.
"determined" means cut off.
Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy
holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make
reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to
seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
And the 70 weeks were fulfilled perfectly as prophecied so by that we
know the time for the remaing of the 2300 forward is the correct time for the
full 2300 perfectly to come to pass also.
Advemtism don't have this wrong, you just need to get with a real well
read SDA to show you how it fits together.
I would be one to do that with you but not in these forums as I am a
slow and unaccomplished typer and very un prolific in expanation because of
that. I think there is some here on the
forums that could do that if they took the time and patience.
The prophecy foretold in the verses above have nothing to do with what
you are referring to.
You just need a good civil discussion with one who is a good teacher of
this subject.
GE:
I'm not talking about Daniel 8; I'm talking about chapter 7.
If there is someone who knows the SDA teaching of an 'investigative
judgment', sir, it's me, GE.
Thanks.
But a civilised discussion I shall not turn away, but welcome.
Now see how the thinkers and theologians on this forum do things. A bit
different, I would say.
But thank you, again. ... it's the 7th chapter ...
SDA:
It's truly amazing how so many of you who are opposed to the Sanctuary
Doctrine as taught by Adventism are all in disunity with one another. You're all espousing different, erroneous
arguments, to try and destroy these sacred truths, but none of you are on the
same footing. That in itself is a sign
that you are all on the wrong side. All
your interpretations are completely contradictory to one another, yet to each
and everyone of you they apparently are "proof" why Adventism's
version is wrong.
This is truly a manifestation of what Paul was talking about when He
said that every wind of doctrine would be flying to and fro in the last days.
Your above posts are a classic example of what "confusion" (
GE:
To say nothing about the variances between yourself in the brotherhood
of Seventh-day Adventism.
I believe Christ Jesus is 'The Heavenly Sanctuary' and '
But yes, Adventists say, Christ Jesus as He is Himself, is opposed to
the sanctuary as taught by Adventism.
Naturally of course!
SDA:
How so? Jesus being the temple sanctuary is simply another symbolic
understanding to discern deeper truths concerning the Church being the body of
Christ. But it still does not negate that intercession takes place in a literal
sanctuary in heaven.
GE:
No! Jesus is NOT, “simply another symbolic understanding” of “the
temple”; HE, IS, the ‘Deeper Truth’, “concerning
the Church being the body of Christ”— certainly, HE, being The Proof that
intercession takes place in heaven; HE, being The Truth that ‘NEGATES’, a
“literal sanctuary in heaven”.
What you say means Christ Jesus if He be The Most Holy Place in Heaven,
‘is in disunity with’, Himself! What you say, is ‘espousing different,
erroneous arguments, and to try and destroy the sacred truth’— found in Christ
Himself.
Christ Jesus is The Heavenly Sanctuary of God.
SDA:
Baloney. False parallelism. 6, 7, 8, 10, and 13 completely disqualify
these erroneous spiritualistic teachings.
GE:
According to this and Adventism, the Truth Jesus Christ Himself, IS,
The Heavenly Sanctuary of God and of believers, is unholy heresy— unholy, heretic, because contradicting,
Adventism.
Of course, The Truth Jesus Christ Heavenly Sanctuary of God and of all
true believers, and Adventism, will not be “on the same footing”, ever. This irreconcilability in itself is a sign
who all, are on Christ’s Jesus’ ‘side’ as they are FOUND “IN HIM”— their
Heavenly Sanctuary and Salvation.
One exclusive Truth— The Truth Jesus Christ is The Heavenly Sanctuary
of God and of all true believers, is NO ‘interpretation’ merely; it is no
‘interpretation’, ‘completely contradictory to’ itself; but it is The Truth for
certain ‘completely contradictory to’ any and all ‘interpretations’ and or
‘arguments’ such as Adventism’s.
But Christ, The Sanctuary Truth HIMSELF— Christ Jesus at the right hand
of God since He Resurrected from the dead and grave— is the apparent "Proof"
why Adventism's ‘version’ of some ‘built sanctuary in heaven’, is wrong.
SDA:
I know these studies can bother one's conscience. It is hard to kik
against the pricks! :)
These last posts are easy to read.
I believe the information given help us understand the distinct
differences between the two seals.
I am sorry that you can't find anything helpful.
GE:
I find everything helpful needed, in Jesus Christ in the
Scriptures. That
is why He is The Most Holy Place of God's Presence, had been, and forever will
be.
But for SDAs He is not needed nor good enough for that.
They must build their own 'heavenly sanctuary' in their own mind, and
consecrate it, ‘The Most Holy in Heaven'.
SDA:
GE, >>I believe Christ
Jesus is 'The Heavenly Sanctuary' and '
There is the literal sanctuary in heaven, there is the sanctuary of His
body, and the sanctuary of His church. One does not negate the other.
Scriptures are clear that Christ is interceding IN a literal sanctuary in
heaven. I'm not into rewriting the book of Hebrews, or the book of Revelation.
The Words plainly expose your deceptive interpretations.
GE:
There is no literal sanctuary in heaven as if it were “built by hands”
even were it built by God’s hands.
The “True Tabernacle”, ‘in heaven’, is God’s Omni-PRESENCE— God’s
“THRONE”, “at the right hand” of which, Jesus Christ is “SEATED in heavenly
POSITION OF GLORY AND MAJESTY”, “AS HEAD of the Church”. Ephesians 1:19-23.
“Will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, the heaven and heaven of
heavens cannot contain Thee. … YET have Thou respect unto the prayer of Thy
Servant and to His supplication, O LORD My God, to hearken unto the cry and to
the prayer which Thy Servant prayeth BEFORE THEE, today: That thine eye may be
open toward THIS HOUSE night and day, even towards THE PLACE of which Thou hast
said, MY NAME, SHALL DWELL THERE. … Hearken Thou to the supplication of The
Servant and of Thy People Israel when they shall pray towards THIS PLACE: AND
HEAR THOU IN HEAVEN THY DWELLING PLACE. And when Thou hearest: FORGIVE!” 1Kings
8:27-30.
Solomon’s prayer and supplication AS TYPE OF CHRIST JESUS’ prayer and
supplication or “intercession” and “mediation”.
“The Place” is Jesus Christ, and “MY NAME SHALL DWELL THERE.”
But what say you of this?
No! “Are we to possibly imagine that God the Father is sitting inside
Christ Jesus?”
And what does the Scriptures in NEW Testament, say of this?
“GOD-IN-CHRIST! … IN FACT, GOD WAS IN CHRIST RECONCILING the world unto
Himself.”
Paul declared this after, he had stated,
“All things are of God who had reconciled us to Himself BY Jesus
Christ.” But now “All things are of God who had reconciled us to Himself BY
Jesus Christ … in fact, God _HIMSELF_ was IN CHRIST reconciling the world unto
Himself.”
But what say SDAs of it? “Are we to possibly imagine that God the
Father is sitting inside Christ Jesus?”
To your shame! Is Jesus Christ sitting on his Throne inside you? Yes?
Yes! Then What is so impossible to “imagine that God the Father is sitting
inside Christ Jesus” and Christ Jesus inside the Father?
“I came out from Thee … and now I come to Thee … as Thou Father, art in
Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us … I in them and Thou in Me
that they may be made perfect in One … And now o Father, GLORIFY THOU ME WITH
THINE OWN SELF.”
Such, Seventh-day Adventist, HAD, Jesus’ intercession and mediation
BEEN, BEFORE even He died or rose or “went up into the sky”, BECAUSE SUCH,
Seventh-day Adventist, IS CHRIST’S ‘HEAVENLY MINISTRY’!
O you slow of heart to believe “I have glorified Thee ON THE EARTH: ON
THE EARTH I have FINISHED the work which Thou gavest Me to do!”
THERE for you, is The Sanctuary— The Sanctuary of his body, and The
Sanctuary of his Church: The Sanctuary of “the heaven of the heavens of heaven”—
“THOU IN HEAVEN THY DWELLING PLACE … THY NAME”, EVEN Jesus Christ, “God with
us” in whom WE, are with God “WHERE I-AM DWELL”.
SDA:
There is the sanctuary of His body, and the sanctuary of His church.
One does not negate the other. Scriptures are clear that Christ is interceding
IN a literal sanctuary in heaven. I'm not into rewriting the book of Hebrews,
or the book of Revelation. The Words plainly expose your deceptive
interpretations.
GE:
You indeed are “into rewriting the book of Hebrews”. See how you use
not a single word from the Book itself to say, “The Words plainly expose your
[GE’s] deceptive interpretations.” Just WHOSE “words”? Not a single word not your
own “words”! The “words” supposed to “expose [the] deceptive interpretations”
of Gerhard Ebersöhn, each and every one are _your_ “words”, but o no, you are
“not into rewriting the book of Hebrews, or the book of Revelation”!
And just WHO is it that deny “Scriptures are clear that Christ is
interceding”? The one who insists on the impossible of the untruth, “Christ is
interceding IN a literal sanctuary in heaven”— an untruth and an impossibility you
do not, because you CANNOT, sustain with as much as a single word from either
the Book of Hebrews or the Book of Revelation.
That “Christ is interceding IN a literal sanctuary in heaven” is an
untruth and an impossibility that flies in the face of the divine truth it is
written,
“Christ being come an High Priest of a greater and perfectly perfect
TABERNACLE NOT, built / made with hands— that is to say, Christ being come an
High Priest of NO tabernacle of such making. [OU choiropoiehtou tout estin OU
tautehs tehs ktiseohs.]
For Christ is NOT entered into a Most Holy Place [that has been] built
/ made with hands — Christ is NOT entered into exemplars [merely] of The True
Most Holy Place IN-THE-PRESENCE-OF-GOD to appear (/ intercede / mediate) for
us!”
So, WHO, is it that is “into rewriting the book of Hebrews, or the book
of Revelation”? SDAs! …
SDA:
… there is the sanctuary of His body, and the sanctuary of His church …
GE:
Yes— separate and different entities.
Who said ‘the one negates the other’?
Christ is The Sanctuary-of-his-body-in-heaven;
and ‘The Sanctuary of his Church’ is “Christ’s-Body-of-His-Own” on
earth.
Who negates it? What would cause “the one to negate the other”?
Nonsense!
But who is it that NEGATES AND DESTROYS this differentiation by saying,
“… there is the sanctuary of His body, and the sanctuary of His church.
One does not negate the other. Scriptures are clear that Christ is interceding
IN a literal sanctuary in heaven”?!
Who is it that ASSUMES and PRESUMES the “literal sanctuary in heaven”
is “the sanctuary of His church”?!
Whose words and whose “interpretations” are ‘exposed’ here for being
words and interpretations, “plainly deceptive”? Common good sense, whose!
Jesus Christ in heaven in glorified resurrected body, is ‘The Sanctuary
in heaven’ of his Church.
And Christ on earth by “the Spirit of Christ”, “dwells” in ‘The
Sanctuary of His Church’, “The Body-of-Christ’s-Own”.
There is no such thing in heaven as a "literal sanctuary"
built or made by hands, were the hands that built it, God’s.
There is "That Holy Thing" though, "His Name, Holies of
Holies", "The Most Holy", "Sanctuary of His People",
"GOD-WITH-US" "El-Beth-El", "Head of the Church",
"JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD", "That Good Shepherd" and
"SAVIOUR OF HIS PEOPLE".
SDA:
Nobody buys your spiritualizing away the literal temple in heaven. We
take the scriptures just as they say. I don't want to keep arguing with you on
this point. St. Augustine of Hippo sure has ruined many minds. If you can't see the three-fold aspect of the
sanctuary---the body of Christ, the Church, and the literal temple in heaven,
then I cannot help you.
Not made with hands simply means human hands. But God literally made a literal earth with
literal human beings. Look around you.
Likewise, God made a literal New Jerusalem, with a literal
Satan wants people to think there is no literal sanctuary in heaven,
because he knows this perfidious doctrine is what will eclipse people's ability
to discern the judgment that is going on in heave, and destroy the Adventist
sanctuary doctrines.
But we are not going to budge.
These doctrine are established on the Word of God, and they cannot be
torn down. The critics have lost, and
will continue to lose.
GE:
And to you also, a big thank you for placing your statement here. It is
perfectly clear what you, hold for truth and what you teach for God's, Truth.
I am so glad clubadventist really has a big readership compared to
other internet forums, so many will read your witness here, a witness against
the Written Word of God— that is so highly regarded it is never even mentioned;
just E.G. White's Written Word. So many will also read your witness here, a
witness against yourself, speaking for itself so loud and clear as the last
trump of the last day.
Have good cheer though, God has saved your life for so long, and don't
pass the gracious opportunity clubadventist gives you to both promote your own
views and see the demise of mine.
SDA:
I'm not into Origenistic spiritualizations that emanate from the
perfidious teachings of St. Augustine of Hippo that lead to the Papal autocracy
of the Church.
GE:
To disclaim Christ Jesus is The Heavenly Sanctuary of God is ‘espousing
different, erroneous arguments, and to try and destroy the sacred truth’ found
in Christ Himself.
SDA:
Utter foolishness. While Christ's body is the true sanctuary, the
literal sanctuary in heaven was built to "symbolize" spiritual
concepts that are intimately connected with the life and body of Christ. More
mystical Origenistic teachings emanating from GE!
Are we to possibly imagine that God the Father is sitting inside Christ Jesus?
It says that God dwells between the two cherubims in heaven (see Psalms 80:1;
99:1; Isa 37:16). That's the
GE:
If ye then be risen with Christ … where Christ sitteth on the right
hand of God” is how the Scriptures describe it, Colossians 3:1— IN FULL
FELLOWSHIP OF GOD, THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.
You will argue, “Are we to possibly imagine that Christ is sitting on the
right hand of God?” but readily assume He applies
his blood in a BUILDING?!
Blasphemy!
According to Adventism, the Truth Jesus Christ Himself, IS, The
Heavenly Sanctuary of God and of believers, is unholy heresy— unholy heresy because
contradicting Adventism, yes!
SDA:
Semantic jugglery, and circus-ride amusement theology. Nothing unholy
about it. Christ bore our sins, and the guilt of that sin.
GE: >>Of course, The
Truth Jesus Christ Heavenly Sanctuary of God and of all true believers, and
Adventism, will not be “on the same footing”, ever. This irreconcilability in itself is a sign
who all, are on Christ’s Jesus’ ‘side’ as they are FOUND “IN HIM”— their
Heavenly Sanctuary and Salvation.<<
Your problem is you utterly fail to comprehend Christ's two-fold
sanctuary. The Literal Sanctuary in heaven, and the Spiritual Sanctuary on
earth--His Church. Since the Church represents the "body of Christ",
in this sense it is a three-fold sanctuary. Many Adventist expositors have done
profound jobs at showing how one position does not negate the other. For
instance, in Revelation, we have 7 heads on the beast which represent 7 kings,
but in another place, they represent seven mountains. One depiction does not
erase the other. God uses multiple symbols from multiple angles to express
glorious truths to enlighten the mind.
GE chooses to get his mind "pidgin-holed" in his interpretations,
failing to ascertain and discern deeper spiritual implications of various
symbolic imagery and representation.
GE: >>One exclusive Truth— The
Truth Jesus Christ is The Heavenly Sanctuary of God and of all true believers,
is NO ‘interpretation’ merely; it is no ‘interpretation’, ‘completely
contradictory to’ itself; but it is The Truth for certain ‘completely
contradictory to’ any and all ‘interpretations’ and or ‘arguments’ such as
Adventism’s.<<
It is contradictory only when your mind is pidgin-holed in its
singular
understanding. I'm sorry, I cannot help you with this. Only the Holy Spirit
can.
GE: >> But Christ, The
Sanctuary Truth HIMSELF— Christ Jesus at the right hand of God since He
Resurrected from the dead and grave— is the apparent "Proof" why
Adventism's ‘version’ of some ‘built sanctuary in heaven’, is wrong.<<
More repetition. See the above.
GE:
I enjoyed your animadversion at tremendous leisure; you spoil me
rotten, relieving me of to dispose your ‘arguments’ myself.
SDA:
GE: >>There is no
literal sanctuary in heaven as if it were “built by hands” even were it built
by God’s hands. The “True Tabernacle”, ‘in heaven’, is God’s Omni-PRESENCE—
God’s “THRONE”, “at the right hand” of which, Jesus Christ is “SEATED in
heavenly POSITION OF GLORY AND MAJESTY”, “AS HEAD of the Church”. Ephesians
1:19-23.<<
The Sanctuary a Point of Special Attack—In the future, deception of
every kind is to arise, and we want solid ground for our feet. We want solid
pillars for the building. Not one pin is to be removed from that which the Lord
has established. The enemy will bring in false theories, such as the doctrine
that there is no sanctuary. This is one of the points on which there will be a
departing from the faith. Where shall we find safety unless it be in the truths
that the Lord has been giving for the last fifty years?—The Review and Herald,
May 25, 1905. {CW 53.2}
GE:
Thank you very much for this post.
Here everybody may see for himself the two, mutually exclusive views of
the conception of 'the heavenly sanctuary'.
That is one GREAT advantage of your post, Bob Ryan.
Another advantage may be even greater, of your post, Bob Ryan, For here
is obviated unambiguously Mrs E.G. White's arrogation to equality with God.
SDA:
There is no literal sanctuary in heaven ...
It's your opinion against the testimony of men such as Moses,
Isaiah, Daniel, and John, all of whom saw it. John saw Jesus in the
Then God's temple in heaven
was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were
flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy
hail. (Rev. 11: 19)
Could you explain how God's temple in heaven could be opened if it
doesn't exist? Is the ark of God's
covenant also non-existent?
Hebrews 9:24 says, "Christ has entered, not into holy places made
with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to
appear in the presence of God on our behalf."
The text is saying that the
earthly sanctuary was only a representation of the sanctuary which is in
heaven. The heavenly sanctuary is actually more real than the one that used to
be on earth.
GE:
It is my opinion in harmony and in accordance with the testimony of men
such as Moses, Isaiah, Daniel, and John, all of whom saw The Judgment. Like
John they all saw Jesus IN PROPHETIC SCENERY of ‘The Holy Place’ or ‘Heavenly
Sanctuary’— more than once through successive or irregular visions and or
dreams.
Thus God's temple in heaven
was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were
flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy
hail. (Rev. 11: 19)
Seen the way you want me to see it, I ask you about just one
triviality, You are talking about things existing and happening ‘in heaven’ …
therefore, What is this, ‘in heaven’, “flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals
of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail”? Could you explain how’s that “God's
temple in heaven”?
But you ably can deny the undeniable, that The Existence of God’s
“Could your understanding be opened”, exclaims Paul, “That the God of
our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of Glory, may GIVE unto you the spirit of
wisdom and revelation IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF _HIM_, the eyes of your UNDERSTANDING
being enlightened :
THAT
YE
MAY
KNOW:
WHAT
IS
the exceeding greatness of his Power to us-wards who believe
– according to the working of his mighty Power
WHICH
GOD WROUGHT / AVAILED / TRIUMPHED IN
IN CHRIST,
WHEN
He RAISED Him from the dead
SEATING Him at his own right hand in
THE HEAVENLY PLACES”
--- of God’s POWER and the EXECUTION of his POWER
THAT ARE GOD’S JUDGMENT IN HIS OWN PRESENCE AND BEING
--- the very prophetic scenes in Daniel and John’s ‘visions’.
That also was “the ark of God's covenant” Jesus Christ on earth,
“SEEN”, ‘in heaven’ NOT its real existence that was upon the EARTH.
Thus:
Hebrews 9:24,
"Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which
are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear
_IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD_ on our behalf."
There! is The Sanctuary. That! is The Sanctuary.
There! is The Judgment. That! is the Judgment.
In your own words,
“The text is saying that the earthly sanctuary was only a representation
of The Sanctuary which is in heaven. The Heavenly Sanctuary is actually more
real than the one that used to be on earth.”
The one on earth is gone with the winds of change; The One in heaven is
“for evermore”. The one on earth is
DEAD; The One in heaven “is LIFE and LIFE more abundantly”.
SDA:
God said in Heb 8:1-5 that there IS INDEED a heavenly sanctuary in
heaven - and SD says that there is not.
Choose you this day the source you will believe friends.
GE:
Friends, hear! The false witness against me; God is Witness, in fact,
Christ Jesus "the Faithful and True Witness" IN THE JUDGMENT OF GOD.
HE, IN JUDGMENT sits on his throne, and "to him that overcometh will I
grant to SIT WITH ME -- IN JUDGMENT -- in My Throne : even as I OVERCAME AND AM
SET DOWN WITH MY FATHER IN HIS THRONE” : “the Thrones", "SET",
in "The JUDGMENT" in Daniel 7
--- the very "JUDGMENT" the saints with Christ SHARE in Revelation
20!
This, the Judgment and the Sanctuary NOT MADE WITH HANDS IN HEAVEN, SDA
in his ignorance, falsely accuses me of that I say it is not there. God forgive
him his ignorance, and I again will point SDA to Paul's fervent prayer in
Ephesians 1:16-23 that God may enlighten his understanding to know WHAT the One
and Only and Once for All and Final Judgment of God is, and had been!
SDA, the ‘judgment’ and the ‘sanctuary’ I say is not there ‘in heaven’,
is any, 'made with hands'.
Kindly abstain from distorting the words of my confession of the
Christian Faith.
SDA:
More spiritualistic, allegoristic,
If there was ever a way to turn off a Dispensationalist-Futurist, this
is the way to do it. You'll never
convert people in the Dispensational camp, because the very arguments they use
against us is that we as Adventists spiritualize away everything--even with us
believing in a literal sanctuary in heaven.
You're only confirming in their minds more that they are right.
I'm sorry SD, but I refuse to believe that heaven is nothing more than
a bunch of floating gasses. Heaven is a real place, with real buildings, and
real worlds. There is a literal Jesus, and a literal Father, and therefore,
literal places where they dwell. This
includes a literal sanctuary that is symbolic of spiritual things.
No need to philosophize and dance between the raindrops, stretching the
scriptures away from their simplicity.
They mean just what they say.
There is a literal sanctuary in heaven, just as Hebrews says.
GE:
I am flabbergasted!
Who is dancing between the raindrops?! My world! You ARE, unbelievable!
But more serious, esteemed friend, is this your claim,
"the scriptures ... mean just what they say. There is a literal
sanctuary in heaven, just as Hebrews says."
Kindly supply us with the place, you know, chapter and verse ...
please?
Better, you PRINT it for us, here ...
SDA:
GE: >>There is no such
thing in heaven as a "literal sanctuary" built or made by hands, were
the hands that built it, God’s. There is "That Holy Thing" though,
"His Name, Holy of Holies", "The Most Holy",
"Sanctuary of His People", "GOD-WITH-US"
"El-Beth-El", "Head of the Church", "JESUS CHRIST OUR
LORD", "That Good Shepherd" and "SAVIOUR OF HIS
PEOPLE".<<
Ellen White already warned of this heresy that was to come into the
Church. That there is no literal sanctuary in heaven. The prophet of the Lord has spoken. The spiritual sanctuary on earth mirrors the
literal sanctuary in heaven. This is the message we get from the totality of
God's Word.
GE:
Again ... Mrs E.G. White's word, "... the totality of God's
Word" … PREFERRED ABOVE plain, SCRIPTURE!
O God, forgive them because they do not know what they believe.
“The LORD hath done great things for us whereof we are glad.
Turn again our captivity, O LORD, as streams in the south.
They that sow in tears shall reap in joy.
He that GOETH FORWARD weeping, BEARING PRECIOUS SEED, shall doubtless
come again with rejoicing, bringing with his sheaves.”
Know from my heart, beloved co-sufferers together with Jesus Christ our
Lord,
I desire to exalt my Lord God Saviour through Truth—
the truth as it is in CHRIST, “according to the SCRIPTURES”,
and few things other will make me cry than this, my heart’s desire
above anything.
SDA:
… however we need to respect Historisism for being what the Holy Spirit
has used to get the church through the dark ages. Now we need to restudy and
build on this foundation but as we look more at the archaeology, apply the
article "The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy" to the
specifics of the Bible and history to find out what it meant back then and thus
draw correct applications to what it will mean to us. We need to be careful not
to have contempt for the work that the Holy Spirit had done so far, but we have
to be careful that we don't end up ending our journey and building a city
settling where the pioneers fell. There is much that we have to learn and
unlearn, but historisism was the method that has gotten us to where we are. The
problem is not being a historical adventist. The problem is that we do tend to
stick our head in the sand and refuse to continue to grow and learn.
GE:
That's it!
So many prophets, so many expositors so many differing 'truths' =
Full ensemble for strings playing the while
... competition of the stooges ...
SDA1:
I'm just a learner, so I would like to know more about your views. However, let me raise just a few questions
for now.
1. Where does the Bible say that
the temple will again be rebuilt?
2. How did you come about
identifying the woman that rides the beast as
3. Or the head that received a
deadly wound that was healed as being Judaism?
GE:
These are questions evoked in your mind by indoctrination that you have
without knowing already been beguiled with. They are irrelevant because the
believer is not concerned with time-setting and because time as such not at all
is of the essence, but Christ Jesus.
Have you ever tried to interpret the Scriptures concerned with regard
to Christ's fulfilment of them IN HIS OWN TIME AND IN HIMSELF?
What is missing in Seventh-day Adventist 'eschatology', IS,
ESCHATOLOGY!
"Christentum das nicht ganz und gar und restlos Eschatalogie ist,
hat ganz und gar und restlos mit Christus NICHTS zu tun!
Christianity that not completely and without reservation is
eschatology, completely and without reservation has nothing to do with Jesus
Christ.
If EVERY question you ask cannot be FULLY answered by Jesus Christ the
answer to your every care, it is a WRONG, and, FALSE, answer.
Therefore if every question cannot be answered fully, and exclusively be answered by Jesus Christ, then
the QUESTION is wrong and false FROM THE OUTSET.
My advice is, Let go the question and forget about the answer, and MAKE
PEACE by taking Hebrews 13:20 for FULL and satisfactory explanation to all your
questions, cares, anxieties or expectations, even your prayers.
Forget prophecy; believe Christ.
SDA:
I believe Christ, that's why I take prophecy seriously.
I consider it a great insult when you use terminology like this. You
act as though simply because many of us have been raised Seventh-Day Adventist,
that this means were were "indoctrinated". Well I won't take this
insult you have put forth against us sitting down.
I may just as well charge you with the same, that you have been
indoctrinated by evangelical thinking, and fused with with some elements of
Adventism who's legacy was handed down to you, and this is why you accept
portions of Adventism but not all of it. You want to only go "so
far", but you won't embrace the whole thing. Had it not been for
Adventism, who knows where you'd be in your beliefs. The knowledge of the
Sabbath has spread across the globe BECAUSE of SDA's.
Men like Gerry and myself do not believe the way we do because we have
been "indoctrinated". Oh no sirreee! Our conclusions are based on our
YEARS of careful Biblical research. Speaking for myself, I did not know what I
believed until within the last 10 years or so. I studied with an open-mind, and
after thoroughly studying what the scriptures had to say, my conclusions happened
to line up with the historic foundations of Adventism.
These messages are truly "most precious"
GE:
So many prophets, so many expositors so many differing 'truths' =
Full ensemble for strings playing the while
... competition of the stooges ...
This study,
The Good News of the Great Day of Atonement
EX ANASTASEOHS
By the Power of His Resurrection
by
Gerhard Ebersöhn
01 06 12
‘The Lord’s Day in the Covenant of Grace’